The testimony of the early Church fathers was that the Church would face the unprecedented persecution of Antichrist which Christ spoke of in Matthew 24:
* Tertullian: "That the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God....Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world."
* Justin Martyr: "The man of apostasy...shall venture to do unlawful things on the earth against us, the Christians."
* Iranaeus: "And the ten kings...shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight."
* Barnabas: "Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are called of God, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the Kingdom of the Lord."
* Hippolytus: "Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary. That refers to the 1260 days during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church."
* The Pastor of Hermas: "Happy ye who endure the Great Tribulation that is coming."
The popular teaching today however is that the Church will be raptured prior to the Great Tribulation. The men quoted above were much closer in time to the Apostles who received God’s direct revelation concerning the Lord’s return. Are we missing something in Scripture that these men clearly understood?
It is important to state from the beginning, Matthew 24:36 says no one knows the day or the hour of Christ’s coming (presence). However, by the time you are finished reading, I think you’ll agree that Scripture clearly teaches we can know when His return and our gathering is near, in fact, right at the door.
To know where to place the Lord’s coming and our gathering on the prophetic timeline is tied to the day of the Lord passages. The key that unlocks the door: The cosmic signs associated with the day of the Lord.
COSMIC SIGN REFERENCED in Joel 2:31:
“The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and awesome DAY OF THE LORD comes.”
Joel says this cosmic sign of the natural lights going out falls prior to the day of the Lord.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,
“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming (presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the DAY OF THE LORD has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it (the day of the Lord) will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.”
Taken at face value,
The plain sense makes sense, is it the right sense? Are there any other places in Scripture where this is taught?
This appears to be precisely what Christ is teaching in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.
Jesus had just come out of the temple. The disciples then come up and point out the temple to Him. Christ tells them that not one temple stone will be left upon another. Later on the disciples approach Him on the
(It will become clear as we move along when Scripture refers to the end, or end of the age, it is referring to the Day of the Lord.)
The Lord begins with a warning in v. 4: “See to it that no one misleads you.”
Summarizing verses 5-14: He says false Christs will come as well as wars and rumors of wars. There will also be famines and earthquakes. He calls these things the beginning birth pangs. Then comes tribulation. v. 9 “They will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.” (Israel is not hated on account of the name of Christ, His disciples are however.) False prophets will arise and mislead many. Lawlessness will increase and people’s love will grow cold. The one who endures to the end (the day of the Lord) will be saved, or delivered. The gospel will be preached in the whole world, and then the end (day of the Lord) comes.
Next Christ speaks of the abomination of desolation (what
Matthew 24;15: “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through
FLEE! (v.16-20)
Why does Christ give instructions to flee?
v.21”…for then there shall be great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall…”
v.22 says that the tribulation days are cut short (the Greek word means amputated), for the sake of the elect. (The great tribulation is cut short, not
COSMIC SIGN REFERENCED IN MATTHEW 24
Verses 29-31 tells us what cuts the days of great tribulation short:
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
Note the reference to the COSMIC SIGN of the natural lights going out. Here in Matthew the cosmic sign occurs after the midpoint of
You might say that you’ve heard Matt. 24 is for
Matthew 28:19-20: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (The day of the Lord.)
The disciples were to teach ALL that Christ commanded them as they made disciples of ALL nations. That would include what was taught in Matthew 24. By way of application, we are to learn these commands and teach them as well. Matthew 24 does include instruction to the Church!
The classic rapture passage, 1 Th. 4:16-5:2 also teaches us that the rapture is a noisy event. There is a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God. We also learn that the dead in Christ are also included in the gathering. When
Next
1 Th. 5:3: “While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they will not escape.”
In v.4
Because we have the list of events in Matt. 24 given to us by Jesus that will precede His day of the Lord’s return, we can be prepared so that day will not overtake us:
1. The rise in false christs (v. 5).
2. The rise in wars between nations (v. 6).
3. Famines, pestilence, and earthquakes in various places (v. 7).
4. Antichrist’s desecration of the
5. The period of severe tribulation for God’s people, more intense than any other in history (v.21).
6. The triple sign in the sun, moon, and stars. (v.29)
So if Christ’s coming and our gathering begins the day of the Lord but cuts short the Great Tribulation, what remains for the rest of
THE WRATH OF GOD!
Isaiah 13 tells us that the day of the Lord contains destruction, God’s burning anger, and the extermination of sinners.
2 Peter 3:10 also describes the day of the Lord’s firey wrath…“the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.”
The day of the Lord cannot be taking place when the son of destruction exalts himself in the temple. It must occur later because Isaiah
The Scripture is very clear that believers are not destined for God’s wrath.
1 Th. 5:9: “For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Once the elect are raptured, God’s wrath will fall.
I was taught that the seals were God’s wrath. When the fifth seal breaks, John sees under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they maintained. (Rev. 6:9)
Look at the question they ask God in Rev. 6:10: “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
The fifth seal martyrs view God’s wrath as yet to come! They recognize their deaths were because of Antichrist’s persecution, the great tribulation, not because of God’s wrath.
We must differentiate between tribulation and God’s wrath. All of
Rev. 12:12b calls the persecution of the dragon via the beast the “wrath of Satan”.
“… Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
At the breaking of the sixth seal in Revelation we see again the triple sign of the sun, moon, and stars. We know from Matt. 24 that these signs occur after the abomination of desolation. The great day of the Lord is about to occur!
Rev. 6:12”…and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood…”
v.13”…and the stars of the sky fell to the earth…”
v.14”…and the sky split apart…”
v.15”…and the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains…”
v. 16”…and they said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us and hide us from the PRESENCE of Him who sits on the throne, and AND FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB…”,
v. 17”…FOR THE GREAT DAY OF THEIR WRATH HAS COME; and who is able to stand?”
This is the end of chapter six. The natural lights have gone out. The sky splits apart. The presence of God and the Lamb is manifested. Men recognize the wrath of God is about to fall. The gathering of the elect should occur at this point, correct? Does Revelation give evidence? The first half of chapter seven of Revelation is the sealing of the 144,000 before God’s wrath is poured out.
Rev. 7:2,3: “And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Look what John sees next!
Rev. 7:9: “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches in their hands…”
v.14b”…These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation…”
This multitude can’t be anyone else other than the gathered elect of Matthew 24! They are in their 1 Cor. 15 resurrection bodies. They are wearing robes and holding palm branches. They have come out of the great tribulation which was cut short by the day of the Lord’s coming! (According to 1 Cor. 15:51-53, what occurs in the twinkling of an eye? The changing of our bodies from perishable to imperishable, not the gathering of believers.)
Take note of 1 Cor. 15:22-25: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming (presence), then comes the end…” (the end of the age and the beginning of the day of the Lord’s firey wrath) “…when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign (…the Lord alone will be exalted on that day!) until He has put all His enemies under His feet.”
In Rev. 8, the seventh seal is broken. There is silence in heaven for half an hour. Look what occurs next.
Rev. 8:5-7: “And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them. And the first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the grass was burned up.”
Now that is the Day of the Lord’s firey wrath, when He pours out His judgment on unbelievers after He removes His elect from the earth! He alone will be exalted in that day! God’s wrath then continues through the remaining trumpet and bowl judgments. Just beyond
COSMIC SIGN REFERENCED IN LUKE 21
Luke 21:25: “And there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars, and upon the earth dismay among the nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
v. 26…men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
v. 27…And then they will see the SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.”
I love verse 28:
‘BUT WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO
For the unbeliever the day of the Lord’s coming will be terrifying. Men will cower and hide behind rocks, desiring for the rocks to fall on them, to be hidden from His presence and from His imminent wrath. But for believers, it will be the realization of our dear and blessed hope, a day filled with great wonder, rejoicing, and marveling. When the natural lights go out we are to straighten up, without fear, for our redemption is near and we will soon behold our glorious Savior!
Don’t the following verses come alive now?
1 Th. 1:10: “…and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.”
2 Th. 1:6-10: “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these shall pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints ON THAT DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed…”
When you read the letters to the seven churches in Rev. 2 and 3 it is quite obvious that the Lord is addressing the churches as if they are about to enter into great tribulation. To the church at
I believe the next event on the prophetic calendar is the seven year covenant that is confirmed with
I believe this to be in conjunction with the first seal in Revelation 6:2: “And I looked and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him; and he went conquering and to conquer.”
It is interesting to note that seals 1-5 in Rev. 6 fall right in line with the birth pangs in Matt. 24 and the persecution of Antichrist.
If we see the confirming of a covenant with Israel by a ruler who subdues three nations and then seven more fall in line under him, we know then that we’ll have 3 ½ years to prepare for the Great Tribulation, a time of unprecedented persecution. According to Rev. 12:13 it is aimed at the woman (
Rev. 13:7: “And it was given to him to make war with all the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.”
But we know who ultimately wins in the end and how that victory is accomplished!
Rev. 12:12a “And they (true saints) overcame him (Satan) because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life, even to death.”
2 Peter 3:10a,11b,14: “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief…what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God…Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless…”
Our greatest preparation should be spiritual. The believer needs to be prepared with Scripture dwelling richly in his heart. God's Word in the heart is the only thing that can provide true peace, joy, and perseverance, now, as well as during time of persecution and during the greatest time of persecution that is yet to come.
At some point after the abomination of desolation (the midpoint of
Mark
70 comments:
You put a lot of work into that! It was great. What else, besides my work and the Bible, have you been reading? And is this a one post blog or are you going to keep adding content?
Dave
Katherine,
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I agree. I’ve always felt that it took some “work” to read scriptures in such a way that would lead one to the pre-trib rapture view. A few years ago I read a book that really convinced me that the church will indeed go through some of the tribulation. To be honest, I don’t recall if the book took a mid or post-trib position. The book is The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin J. Rosenthal. Essentially, the author takes the position that the Bible says that we are not appointed unto wrath, but that we will be persecuted by the world. The author also focused on the concept of the Day of the Lord. The idea that the Lord is coming again is not split into two episodes. It is a single event. The world persecutes His Bride. The trumpet sounds and the Bridegroom rides in on his white horse to rescue His Bride and pour out His wrath on those who have persecuted the church He calls His own. It may start out tough but it ends really well!
By the way, my wife and son and I live in Salem, Oregon. I noticed you’re from the northwest. What part of the Northwest do you live in?
Jim G.
Thanks for dropping by Dave. I spent about a week putting this together. I want people to know, to be prepared for what is coming. I’ve read Rosenthal, Van Kampen, and Nigro. (I should probably pick up your book, yes?) I’ve visited Bible Fragrances, Prewrath Rapture Dot Com, Kevin Eckerty’s The Case for the Prewrath Rapture, Revelation Commentary. I’ve been all over. I’ve a passion to get the word out. It’s frustrating when you hit wall with people though. Some just don’t want to hear it. When they do see it, it’s great. I don’t plan on posting anything again real soon. It may be just a one post blog. Just something I can direct folks to. I will probably add links. Of course I will direct others to your place. Thanks again for stoppin’ in.
Kathy
Appreciate you visiting Jim G. My husband and I reside in Gig Harbor, Wa. Rosenthal's work was the very first book I read. A deacon in my church was the one who encouraged me to take the "new" look. I just accepted pre-trib because it was what I grew up with. Then when I really became a Berean, wow, the lights came on. When Christ comes down from heaven on the white horse He is coming to destroy the last of His enemies at the Battle of Arm. That is at the end of the Week. He gathers and delivers the elect at the opening of the sixth seal, some time after the mid-point. No one knows the day or the hour though, except the Father.
Be Watchful!
Kathy
Kathy,
Thanks for putting this out there. You clearly have a heart for the Lord and for His Word as well.
I have a couple of questions to ask, and I would appreciate your opinion - you have obviously put a lot of thought into the subject.
First, it seems like your position is based in large part on the assumption that what's happening on the earth during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation is NOT "God's wrath." It seems to me that to people who are present on the earth at that time, whether Christian or not, it will certainly seem like God's wrath is raining down... Are you saying that the terrible things happening during this time are not part of God's real wrath (i.e., that He's saving the really bad stuff for later), or are you saying that Christians will somehow be protected from those things? Or maybe you're saying something else altogether. Any clarification you can provide would be appreciated.
Second, you correctly point out that no man knows the day or time of Christ's return. But one thing that's always bothered me about the mid-trib and post-trib positions is that under those scenarios we should be able to calculate the day. After all, Daniel gives a specific number of days, and if the Antichrist brokers a seven year peace treaty, then it's merely a matter of doing the math to figure out the day. So I'm having a hard time reconciling this conflict... Again, your thoughts would be appreciated.
Third, I'd be curious about what translation you're working from. Any time you're not using the language of the original manuscripts, there's the potential for error. For example, take a look at Dan. 12:4 in multiple translations, and you'll see a wide variety of interpretations. Curiously, the NIV, which is generally pre-trib friendly, seems to mis-translate Dan. 12:4, and some of the older translations make much more sense for our current time in history...
Thank you again for the dialogue, and I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these issues...
Thanks.
Paul
Kathy,
GOOD FOR YOU!!! You did a wonderful job in presenting your Pre-Wrath view on the Rapture of the Church. And if you're right? You've helped a whole lot of people, IMO, as well!
I still hold to the theory of the three loads out of here, though :)
So, I guess you could call me a Pre-Trib., Mid-Trib, and Post Tribber, LOL. Really. I see where it ALL makes sense. But, we both share a lot of the same concepts, and we'll see just how much we got right, and wrong, when we've been in heaven for a few thousand years, okay?
I admire your writing ability, and the willingness to put it out there, too! I know you were shot down a year ago, big time. However, I believe that Joel's Blog is a little more open minded now, than it was a year ago :) And that's a good thing! And I've even opened up my thinking too :) Now THAT'S a really, really good thing!
I love you, and I think your new Blog is great! May God bless your message, and may it be a means of inspiring others to re-think end time events in a new light. Because as I mentioned on Wilma's Blog, I believe that God has a few 'curve balls,' for Believers in the near future. And I know, that we all need to stay in close contact with our Living Savior as much as possible, Amen?
Glad you came by Paul and thanks for the kind words.
God would be guilty of martyring His own (the 5th seal martyrs) if the entire Week was the wrath of God. They ask God how much longer until He avenges their blood. The wrath of God is spoken of for the very first time at the 6th seal which is well into the 70th week, after the midpoint. In Rev. 12, Michael throws the dragon/Satan out of heaven. The oppression going on of Israel and her offspring after this happens is called the wrath of the devil. We know this to be the time of great tribulation in Mt. 24 which begins just after the midpoint of the Week. Jesus said a house divided against itself will not stand. He is not responsible for the oppression of Israel and her offspring. The beast worshippers are enjoying peace and safety during the time of oppression because they’ve given their allegiance to the beast. But sudden destruction (the really bad stuff-God’s wrath) will fall upon them after the 6th seal is opened and will continue to fall in the form of the trumpet and bowl judgments. The dead in Christ and the believing saints are raptured at this point, before God’s wrath begins to fall.
Mt. 24 says the great tribulation (not Daniel’s 70th week) is cut short by the day of the Lord’s coming and gathering of the saints somewhere after the middle and before the end of the Week. Does the great tribulation go on for 6 months or two years? We don’t know. Only the Father knows the day and the hour that His Son’s return cuts short the great tribulation.
I was quoting from the NASB.
I hope this helps.
Kathy
Thank you Marge. I just simply presented the Scriptures at face value and then compared Scripture with Scripture. I was really hoping you’d see it.
I gotta ask you, where do you come up with “three loads?” Show me the verses, please!
You are so very right about needing each other.
Hebrews 10:24,25: “Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see THE DAY drawing near.”
I love you too.
Dave,
If you can give Paul any insights that I've missed, please do.
Thanks ahead of time.
Kathy
Paul,
I would also like to add that the first five seals, false christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, martyrdom of saints, have been going on since Christ ascended into heaven after His resurrection. (And some even before.) These are characteristic of man's oppression against man. I believe they will greatly escalate before the Lord's parousia/presence. It's going to be awful, but God's eschatological wrath is described as very different. Hail and fire mixed with blood. A great mountain burning with fire that turns a third of the sea to blood. A great star like a burning torch turning a third of the waters to wormwood. The natural lights going out again. Smoke and locusts with power like scorpions which don't hurt grass and trees as they would normally but only people who do not have God's seal. Their torment goes on for five months, only bringing excruciating pain, pain so horrible that men wish for death but won't find it. Very different stuff. We are promised to be delivered before that, but in this world we will have tribulation.
Kathy
Paul>First, it seems like your position is based in large part on the assumption that what's happening on the earth during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation is NOT "God's wrath." <
It’s not an assumption, and the Bible is very clear on this point actually. If the first 3 seals are God’s wrath associated with the end of the world, then we are in God’s wrath right now! We have men slaying each other, inflation, famine, etc, yet no one thinks we are in God’s wrath now.
I think that the great tribulation probably begins at the 4th seal, but I’m not dogmatic about it. But we know that the great trib has begun previous to the seventh seal because we see those that have “come out of the great tribulation” in Rev. 7:14. I think you should try to find any scripture that places God’s wrath within great tribulation. It can’t be found anywhere is the Bible. But we can know that His wrath hasn’t begun as of the 5th seal because God and the martyrs state that it’s not begun.
In Rev. 6:10, the martyred saints cry, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” If God’s wrath has been poured out since the opening of the first seal, wouldn’t He already be judging those who dwell on the earth and avenging the martyrs’ blood? But, because of this passage, we clearly see that, as of the 5th seal, He is not judging nor avenging, and therefore is not yet pouring out His end-times wrath as the pre-tribulation theory claims.
Paul>Second, you correctly point out that no man knows the day or time of Christ's return. But one thing that's always bothered me about the mid-trib and post-trib positions is that under those scenarios we should be able to calculate the day. <
Pre-wrath completely rectifies this dilemma. I have a quick and easy piece that should sum it up painlessly for you.
http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2006/02/pre-wrath-is-meat-and-potatoes.html
Well, sorry. I guess it won't show the whole link. Just go to my blog:
http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/
Look to the left under "Must Read Posts" and click "Pre-wrath Simplified." Sorry Katherine. Not trying to steal your readers! :o) Just trying to help.
Dave
Dave,
Your insights are great. I'm going to post a link right now to your blog.
Thanks,
Kathy
Thanks. And a blog should not have this many comments on its FIRST post! You must have some kind of voodoo magic.
Dave
Katherine,
I am sorry this will appear as "anonymous" but I am not that e-iterate yet...
My name is Kristen and I am the daughter of the late Robert VanKampen, one of the authors you mentioned. I want to tell you how my heart soared with your beautiful and kind exposition of the pre-wrath position. You communicated it clearly, without attack, and I just want you to know I will be praying for you as you seek to share truth with others.
I share my father's passion to warn the church in order to prepare them for the coming persecution. I am in the final stages of another pre-wrath novel, which Lord-willing will be out by this spring. My hope is that it will be a non-threatening way to present a feasible storyline, supported with scripture, to encourage and prepare the church for the great tribulation. I have never commented here before, and have read on occasion other attempts to share the pre-wrath theology, but you have done it so well, that I just wanted to thank you and commend you.
My heart is for truth and not to be divisive, and that is another reason that I appreciate the venue in which you shared the Word. I believe the people on this blog love the Lord and the Word, and it is my prayer that though they will reject it initially, you have planted a seed which they can draw on in the future. Do not take criticism to heart, but hold firmly to the Word.
May God bless you,
Kristen
Katherine;
Congratulations on your new blog, and I hope you continue to add to it! I wanted to tell you (and please don't freak out about this!) that the views you expressed and the reasons supporting your arguments are the closest I've seen to a Roman Catholic view of end times that I have read. Thank you! (I can't say that the views are exactly Catholic in substance. I would have to refer that to someone who is much more experienced in that, and as soon as I do that, they'll start using verrryyy big words, in order to be as precise as possible. I'm going to post something on Joel's blog that will demonstrate this!)
In any case, for those people like Paul who say that ...one thing that's always bothered me about the mid-trib and post-trib positions is that under those scenarios we should be able to calculate the day. That's not necessarily the case, because it depends on us recognizing who is playing what role, or what event corresponds with an event in scripture, and I think that may be much more difficult than many people believe. We tend to have our own images in our head of what someone is to look like or how some event is going to occur, so we may miss an event or a person just because it doesn't match our image. Just consider how in "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King", the leader of the Wraiths boasted on the battlefield that he could be killed by no man. So the princess removed her helm and said, "I am no man!" before killing him.
A few weeks ago someone posted a link to a video where the person made a case that Prince Hassan bin Al Talal of Jordan would play a role in the End Times. (Can't remember if he was to be the Antichrist or the False Prophet.) The point was that based on what we know, he matches a number of characteristics of the role as described in scripture. The key is this: based on what we know. There could be someone else who matches the characteristics that we don't know about, someone working behind the scenes.
This is why I believe the War of Gog and Magog will be an event separate from any event described in Revelation. For one, it provides one final chance for people to come to know Christ before the end comes. For another, after Gog/Magog, EVERY event will be interpreted in light of scripture. There will be dozens, if not hundreds, of people preaching and prophesying, but many of them will be false prophets preaching a false Gospel. There will be so much noise that it will be impossible for any one person to say authoritatively that this person or that event matches this point in scripture.
Shalom!
><>
Kristen,
You’ll never know how much your visit has blessed and encouraged me. When I read who your father was my heart literally jumped. I can’t thank the Lord enough for the insight He gave your father regarding our Lord’s return and His gathering us unto Himself. Your father communicated it so plainly and simply! The confusion just melted away.
My heart also is not to be divisive but for truth and to prepare the Lord’s people for what is coming.
Thank you for your warm and loving encouragement. God's wonderful and rich blessings to you too.
Rejoicing in His Love,
Kathy
Ps…I’ll be looking for your book when it comes out. I just finished your father’s “The Fourth Reich” and really enjoyed it.
Jim,
Thank you for visiting. I’ve learned from reading you at Joel’s that you have a wealth of information that boggles my mind! If I’ve peaked your interest, I would like to direct you to Robert Van Kampen’s book, “The Rapture Question Answered Plain and Simple”, or Marv Rosenthal’s work, “The Prewrath Rapture of the Church”. Those books explain the prewrath position in much greater detail (and probably with better clarity). I’ve been wanting to take a deeper look at Ezekiel 38 and 39. I’m leaning towards the placement of the War of Gog and Magog occurring within Daniel’s 70th week, after God’s wrath begins to fall. I’ve read one view that actually divides the activities within these two chapters as two different campaigns. Definitely has peaked my interest.
Thankful for His undeserving grace,
Kathy
Katherine,
Good work!! You did a nice job of summarizing the Pre-Wrath View. I left the Pre-Trib camp about four years and accepted the Pre-Wrath View with the help of a dear brother, Roy A. Reinhold, who has been teaching the Pre-Wrath view for many years and who authored a book about the Day of the Lord back in the early 80's I think. Anyway, he also has a website: ad2004.com I truly believe that the Pre-Wrath view is the most Biblically sound and supported. I've studied all the raptured views, and I'm sticking with this one. Could I just offer two words of constructive criticism, which might appear as splitting hairs? First, I would be sure to mention that the entire 7-year period should not be referred to as the Great Tribulation period, nor even as the tribulation period. I think it is best to identify it as Daniel's 70th Week. I'm not accusing you of doing that and in fact througout your original post you do make that distinction to some degree, but I say that because Pre-Tribbers misuse that term so often. Then, about the Second Coming, I think that it does occur in 2 phases or parts. Now, not like Pre-Trib would have it. But, in the first phase, the Rapture occurs after the 6th Seal is opened after the Great Tribulation period and after the triple celestial sign, but just before the Day of the Lord or Day of Wrath, right?. The 144,000 are sealed and the Church appears in heaven right before the 7th Seal is opened, which as you know contains the Day of the Lord or Wrath period. Then, the second phase or part is when Jesus comes back all the way down to earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. So, I do see His Second Coming in two phases or parts, but not separated by 7 years as Pre-Trib asserts. Instead, the two phases are separated only by the Day of the Lord period, which could last anywhere from 5 months to 3 plus years. I hope I'm not being too picky with this because I do appreciate your courage and fine work. Just my thoughts...
Hi Raul,
I welcome your constructive criticism. I want to cut it straight! I know there is some refining to be done. Thank you for your input. I read your story on Prewrath Rapture Dot Com by the way. Wasn’t it exciting when it all came together? I had just always accepted the pretrib position because it was what I grew up with. I knew post-trib was wrong because we are not destined for God’s wrath. The friend who encouraged me to take that “fresh” new look is an amazing student of the Word. That was the catalyst for me starting over. I saw it almost right away. I read Rosenthal’s book twice in one week, the second time with my Bible in hand, comparing Scripture with Scripture. Robert VanKampen’s “The Sign” was next, and then his “The Rapture Question Answered Plain and Simple.” (What a thrill and honor it was to have Kristen VanKampen drop in!) By the way, anyone reading here who would like to know what book to go with first, I would recommend Robert VanKampen’s “The Prewrath Rapture Position Explained Plain and Simple”. It’s a shorter work of the latter of his two books that I mentioned. Order it by clicking here. I was 100% convinced by the time I had gone through both author’s work. And the more time I spend in the Word, the greater the confirmation. Now to get the word out, with grace and without being divisive. Thanks for the visit Raul.
Rich Blessings,
Kathy
Kathy,
The Scriptures are all the ones that are used to support, Pre-Trib, Mid Trib, and Post Trib positions.
It was thru Marilyn Hickey's end time teaching that I learned about the two Raptures, and then John, (Boatman) added the Post Trib, and I thought, okay. Anyhow, it ties in, funny enough, with God's wrath not coming against the Church. So, you know the Pre-Trib stance. And the Mid-Trib Rapture would be the same verse, God's wrath. Because people will be saved during the first part of the Tribulation, Daniel's 70th week, whatever. And then, the same reasoning goes with the Post- Trib. Rapture. Although, I'd only go so far as to defend the first two Raptures, being Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib. And I have no problem with there being 2, or even 3 Raptures, as in the OT there were several, and the OT is a type and a shadow of the NT.
I suppose I have 'no worries' as to the Rapture question, because I have my Faith in God, and His ability to keep me. Although I enjoy studying the end times, that's not where my real interest is, in all honestly. As you know, I'm Full Gospel, Word of Faith, and I am currently studying Bible studies in that direction. However, I can appreciate your calling to write this Blog, and what the Lord has laid upon your heart to do, etc. We all have to follow what God leads us to do, Amen?
Anyway, I love you, and may God bless you, and your Blog. And may it bring love, and unity to the body of Christ. We need a lot more of that, IMO.
And just look at how many people are responding? I'm sure this is a 'God thing,' and that it will be blessed, in abundance, and surpass all you ever thought or dreamed.
All,
I seem to be a minority of one in this group. Unfortunately, I remain unpersuaded and I'm still clinging to a pre-trib view.
When the Antichrist commits the abomination of desolation in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple, if my current view is wrong and I'm still here I feel confident that I will be able to identify him as the Antichrist, and I'll also be able to do the math to calculate the day of Christ's return. In fact, if that happens, look for me - I'll be standing on a street corner in the downtown area of your town thumping people over the head with my bible as they walk by. :-)
But my hope (and prayer) is that I won't be here to see that day (the abomination, that is). I guess the biggest problems I have with the pre-wrath view are twofold:
1) It does violence to the doctrine of the imminancy of Christ's return, which is one of the key doctrines that has motivated Christians since the time of Paul. Knowing that Christ could return at any moment is today and has been throughout history a key motivator for Christians. Even the disciples thought His return was imminent. Under the pre-wrath view, His return is not imminent - it's by definition at least 3 1/2 years away from today.
2) The pre-wrath view actually has us all watching for the Antichrist's appearance first, and not Christ's appearance. This is unscriptural. We are instructed to watch for Christ's return, not the evil one's. According to pre-wrath, once we see the abomination, then we can start looking for Christ, but not until then...
As far as the seals go, Rosenthal suggests that the first six are the Antichrist's wrath being unleashed on us, and by making this argument he avoids violating the scripture which says the church will not be subject to the coming wrath. He calls the first six "a time of difficulty," which is may well be the biggest understatement in the history of the universe. The problem is that it is CHRIST who is breaking those seals open, and unleashing the "difficulty" on mankind - not the Antichrist. I believe the unleashing of the first six seals is clearly part of God's wrath...
Additional problems:
How many true Christians would even be left to be raptured at the point of the Rapture under the pre-wrath view? I'm certainly not going to accept the mark of the beast (as I assume none of you will), and so I wouldn't be able to buy or sell (i.e. get food). It seems like if the church were left to suffer the mark, then there would be very few to be raptured.
Bottom line, and no disrespect intended to any on this blog who disagree, but I am eagerly awaiting the rapture and I believe it could happen any moment. I believe he will come like a thief in the night, and before the Antichrist is revealed (and the abomination occurs). And it's the imminence of His return that motivates me to tell others about Him, and to encourage them to turn their life over to Him.
BTW, Rosenthal's work has been the subject of numerous critiques (easy to find on the web), and I'm unaware of even a single major prophecy teacher who adopts his views today.
So Kathy, I remain unpersuaded. And frankly I don't see the harm in my position - it has me always ready to meet Him. I guess the downside would be that I might have to put up with "a time of difficulty" (as Rosenthal puts it) if I have to endure the first six seals. The downside to your position is that you may be caught off guard if you aren't expecting what will happen in 1/11th of a second (the blink of an eye). :-)
God Bless you, Kathy, for loving Him enough to care about this issue and to devote time researching and writing on it. I'll look you up when we get to Heaven and we can have a good laugh about this whole conversation, especially if it turns out that neither of us is right!!!
Hi Paul,
You will be able to identify the Antichrist. I am confident of that too.
You will not be able to calculate Christ’s initial presence/coming and our gathering at the Day of the Lord’s return. Matt. 24 explicitly says Christ’s coming and our gathering cuts short the great tribulation on a day and hour known only by the Father. When the number of the martyred elect is complete, the Father will end the wrath of Satan against the elect and send the Son to gather the dead in Christ and the remaining elect. Now as far as Christ’s appearance at Armageddon, that’s another story.
Christ makes it very clear in Mt. 24 when His return becomes imminent. It is just after the natural lights are extinguished. Can you give me one verse that doesn’t require assumption that supports an any moment return?
Christ Himself has us watching for the Antichrist per His instructions in Mt. 24. It is very scriptural. According to Christ we know His return is imminent when the cosmic signs occur.
The great tribulation, the time of oppression against Israel and the elect, is called Satan’s wrath in Rev. 12, plain and simple. Satan’s wrath is cut off at the 6th seal, when Christ delivers the remaining elect, then God’s wrath falls on the beast worshippers.
You are right. If the days of great tribulation were not cut short, no life would be saved. Christ says that Himself in Mt. 24:22. It’s going to be horrible. But it is going to be Satan’s wrath, not God’s wrath. It’s believers who are being killed during the time of great tribulation. If it is God’s wrath, He makes Himself out to be a liar because He’s says we are not destined for His wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Th. 5:9)
1 Cor. 15 says our bodies are changed from perishable to imperishable in the twinkling of an eye. It is not referring to the speed of the catching away itself.
The prewrath position does not take away the need to always be ready to meet Him, or to be sharing the gospel. Our next breath is not guaranteed. We don't know if that person at the grocery store we didn't share the gospel with will make it home tonight.
Thanks for visiting Paul.
Grace and Peace to You,
Kathy
Paul,
I will try to answer your other questions as I get time. Here's the first one.
Paul said: It does violence to the doctrine of the imminancy of Christ's return<
I challenge you to find ONE verse that even hints that Christ will come back before any needed event. You won't find one. Men will claim imminent verses in the books they write, but when we really examine them and what they say the verses fall very short of what today's pre-trib writers claim.
If you go to my (Dave B) blog that Katherine has listed on her hers, click it, and then add the following to my main blog address you will find a post that lists every "imminent" passage.
/2005/12/he-could-come-at-any-moment.html
I don't even feel the need to expound on them and simply let the reader TRULY examine each one decide-do any of these verses REALLY say that He could come back at any moment?
Paul said: [Imminency] is one of the key doctrines that has motivated Christians since the time of Paul.<
This is not true either. There is not one hint of a pre-trib rapture in ALL of Christian literature until the 1800's. But even if there was, to say that this is a needed doctrine to motivate people to live a life of faith falls short. If anyone needs this doctrine to keep motivated they are spiritually immature, at best. Peter was actually told that he WOULD die a martyrs death by crucifixion, yet he was able to live a Christ centered life. Did Jesus destroy Peter's hope of His imminent return by telling Pete that he would die before Christ's return?! :o)
And ALL old testament people of faith planned on dying. Did they lack motivation to follow God without imminency?
Anyway, those are just a few thoughts before I go to work. I typed them quick, so hopefully they don't come across snotty. I usually take more time to write smoothly, so sorry if anything seems insulting.
Dave
Katherine,
I wanted to respond to you sooner, but was busy with other things. I just wanted to say that it is refreshing to see someone like you be so receptive to constructive criticism and instruction. It is certainly a sign of spiritual maturity. I believe that God honors a person, who has a teachable spirit, and you certainly exhibited that. Fantastic!! You mentioned about refining your understanding of the Pre-Wrath position. I too am in the same boat and thus are equals in this quest to rightly divide the Word of Truth and to better and correctly understand Eschatology. I'm sure that you can teach me scriptural truths that I had never before considered. So, again Sister, I applaude your valiant effort and the graceful way you interact with others. You have inspired me Kathy. So, that said, know that I will be praying for you and I especially ask that you pray for me. That we may discover more wonderful truths in His Word and that we may be able to share them with others in a clear but loving way. God Bless. And as they say, "YOU GO GIRL!!!" In Christ, your Mexican-American brother, Raul
Kathy,
I read my Blog and saw your kind comments. However, I would say, to continue to post on Joel's Blog. Because if you've read the comments today, there is a gal named Jane, who has been reading and didn't want to post because of intimidation issues. (and she's Pre-Trib, no less :)
Anyhow, my point is that there are a lot of people who read Joel's Blog, that rarely comment, because of that issue. Now that isn't right! So, pray about it, okay? And if there is a subject being discussed that interests you, just jump right in, and respond. And you could mention your own Blog, from time to time, too, as there are always new people reading. And especially when Joel publishs his new book, etc. Anyhow, you get us to think, 'outside the box,' so to speak. And THAT'S a good thing!
Love ya, and may God continue to bless you, yours and your new Blog!
Where is "Joel's blog?"
Paul,
Pre-Tribulationalism is popular because it appeals to the flesh. Let's be real about that. But, it is not Biblically supported. Instead, it is full of assumption, conjecture, and wishful thinking. Now, about the doctrine of imminency, you are right that it is central to Pre-Trib teaching, but that doesn't mean it is Biblical. A well-known Pre-Trib. teacher, Dr. Thomas Ice, has said that at the heart of Pre-Tribulationalism is the doctrine of imminency. Dr. Gerald Stanton(another Pre-Trib teacher and advocate) says in an article, "Dr. John F. Walvoord, a prime authority in the field of Bible eschatology, forcefully states and illustrates this truth: "The central feature of pretribulationism, the doctrine of imminency, is, however, a prominent feature of the doctrine of the early church ... [which] lived in constant expectation of the coming of the Lord for His church." [source- Dr. John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question Revised and Enlarged Edition, Zondervan, Grand Rapids, 1979, 51.] Paul, the problem is that the verses usually cited as proof of imminency are vague and open to debate. As such, the arguments that Pre-Trib proponents put-forth to support imminency are weak. Note what yet another prominent Pre-Trib teacher/expositor has to say concerning the doctrine of imminency. Dr. John A. Sproule, B.S.E.E., Th.M., Th.D., writes, "... one of the recognized deans of pretribulation eschatology, refers to imminency as the heart of pretribulationism. Yet he is able to muster only a few vague quotations from the Early Church Fathers plus a few debatable scriptures (Jn. 14:1-3; 1 Th. 1:10, 13-18; 5:6; 1 Cor. 1:7) to support his statement. Pretribulationism can ill afford to rest on the shaky foundation of traditionalism and eisegetical (reading into the text what is not there) statements. If its "heart" is a debatable and inductively determined doctrine of Imminency, then, perhaps an exegetical "heart transplant" may be in order." [source- Dr. John A. Sproule, In Defense of Pretribulationism, Winona Lake, IN: BMH Books, 1980, p. 23] WOW, what an admission, coming from a highly educated individual, who also "clinges" to Pre-Tribulationalism. Those statements should send chills down the spine of Pre-Tribbers, and better yet, should resonate within their spirit. Just my thoughts...
In Christ, Raul Delgado
Raul,
Thanks for the return visit. Please do share your insights. My one request to everyone (and everyone has respected it so far-thank you), please remain graceful with your comments and replies. I will be praying for you Raul, my Mexican-American brother in Christ.
Your Swedish-American sister in Christ,
Kathy
(Aren't you thankful for His "grafting" grace?!)
Dave,
The Joel we are referring to is Joel Rosenberg. He has a blog. He is a pretrib Jewish believer. He's authored several books. I had just read his book "Epicenter, Why the Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Affect Your Future" when I had first heard about prewrath. I started asking questions about it on his blog. I quickly learned prewrath is not well-received there, for the most part. Some are open. Some feel very threatened. Some feel it is heresy. I've decided to no longer post about prewrath there because I do not wish to be divisive. Though I felt I was gracious, others did not receive it that way.
Marge, if events begin to fall within the prewrath framework while I'm still alive, I'll go back. I appreciate your encouragement.
Kathy
Click here to visit Joel's blog. Joel posts entries about current events that point to Bible prophecy. He does not respond to comments. It can get rather heated at times amongst those commenting.
You know how exuberant a new believer can be when they first come to Christ? Well, when Christ's return and our gathering fell so wonderfully into place for me under the prewrath framework, I wanted to tell Joel's bloggers all about it. The heart behind my exuberance was for God's people to be prepared. I soon learned that many just don't want to hear it. The purpose of this blog is to teach and discuss the prewrath position in a non-threatening and graceful manner.
Thank you all for stopping by. I look forward to our future discussions together!
Katherine;
If there are people on Joel's blog that are giving you heat, don't sweat it. The tempers flare and die down, people reconcile, and the comments go on. We've had someone who consistently posts as "anonymous", despite repeated attempts to get him/her to adopt a screen name. "Anonymous" (aka, Anony mouse) is a classic troll who delights in inflaming passions and making outrageous remarks that beg responses, yet each reply only generates more outrageous remarks. You happened to post just after one of Anonymous' attacks, and if people seemed aggressive, that would be why.
I also speak from experience. As a Catholic, I've had my share of attacks, but I still keep posting because I believe that my Catholic upbringing gives me insights and viewpoints that would not be available to someone raised in an evangelical environment.
Shalom!
><>
Katherine,
Simply because others can't handle truth and respond with anger doesn't make what you were doing divisive. If that were the case Jesus couldn't have taught most of what He taught! What you say is not divisive. It's those that can't handle it that cause division, and we should not become weary of sharing truth because of people like that.
I have had many people email me and thank me for going up against hardcore pre-tribbers on debate forums and such. I had no idea that they were even there at the debate because they were "lurkers" that were reading along but not posting. Many of these "lurkers" became converts to pre-wrath because of what they read.
I've learned that I never go into a debate thinking that I will change the mind of the one I'm debating. It RARELY happens. I do it for the lurkers that are undecided and hope for seeds to be planted.
Dave
Good advice Dave. And I need to remember Kristen's as well, though people might initially reject it, a seed has been planted.
Thanks.
Raul,
An interesting post you gave at 11:35 last night... I have a couple of comments. And honestly, I'm trying to keep an open mind.
- Just because something is debatable doesn't make it wrong. In fact, if you're admiting that it's debatable, then there's a clear implication that it MAY be right. I would suggest that if a think is "debatable," then it's simply unclear.
- Are there any major prophecy teachers and/or scholars who have adopted the pre-wrath position? If so, I would definitely like to read them (other than Rosenthal, who, and correct me if I'm wrong, appears to have "discovered" it). Please help me identify some seminary educated scholars, men or women who are educated in the Bible, who know how to read the original Bible manuscripts in Hebrew and Greek, and who have adopted pre-wrath as their way of thinking? It's not that I don't trust Kathy and her followers on this blog, I don't see how the scriptures they've pointed out support the conclusions they make - much in the same way that you apparently don't connect the dots on the pre-trib scriptural positions. I just don't know the credentials of the people posting here and have no way to verify them... So please give me someone who would have a chance of qualifying as an "expert witness" on this topic and who has gone public with their position.
- Is there even a single seminary anywhere that teaches its students the pre-wrath doctrine? If so, which one(s)?
- I get the feeling that the crowd on this blog would not accept any scriptural support for the imminency doctrine, short of a direct quote from Christ saying, "My return is imminent." Given that he didn't say those exact words, we have to look at the things he DID say. I looked at one site that a blogger above wrote about where he analyzed about 30 alleged "imminency" scriptures, and frankly, I couldn't believe what I read. It seems to me that all these scriptures when taken as a whole, clearly imply imminency...
- To make a conclusion as to whether or not those 30+ scriptures imply imminency is no different than making a conclusion, as you have, that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal. There is no scripture which says the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal, and so to reach that conclusion, you have to REASON your way there based on the available material. Why is your REASONING better and more correct than mine (and John Walvoord's, Thomas Ice's, Stanton's, Lahaye's, etc.). Do any of you claim to have received a special prophet revalation from God?
- You are right about my fleshly interest in this topic! I don't want to watch my family starve to death (anybody read 2 Kings 6:24-33 lately???). Maybe that desire in me is blinding me to your "truth". But why are so many others blinded this issue, too? Would you accuse John Walvoord (God rest his soul) of being similarly blinded by fleshly concerns? I could not. He was a scholar and a gentleman, and spent his entire life devoted to seeking God's truth. If he thought God's truth was the pre-wrath position, I have no doubt that he would have said so. You may be able to impune my motives, but you can not impune his.
- At the end of That Day (pun intended), there are three possible outcomes: 1) You are right and I am wrong; 2) I am right and you are wrong; or 3) We are both wrong. And we won't know until the next prophetic event occurs. In the meantime, I am legitimately interested in understanding your position... I mean, are you all stockpiling 50 lb. bags of dried beans and rice in your basements, or what??? :-)
Kathy,
I felt an urgent need to post here, after reading Joel's Blog, LOL.
PLEASE don't be intimidated by anyone, okay? Jim is SO RIGHT. Just because you have a different view on Scripture, you have every right to voice that opinion. After all, the last time I checked we still live in the United States of America, right?
Just continue to walk in the love of Jesus Christ, and if some Christians don't quite agree with you? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, correct?
And to say that there is just 'one' Rapture? I don't agree with that statement, whatsoever.
John, (Boatman) Robin and I believe in at least two Raptures. And since there have been two Raptures, (Enoch and Elijah) who says there can only be just one Rapture? I dunno. It honestly breaks my heart to see some, on a Christian website so determined to 'shoot (their fellow Christian bother or sister) in the foot,' if their opinion doesn't agree with their opinion. This is supposedly helpful to new Christians? Hmmmm.
I believe that displaying love, no matter what their view on the end times was, would be a far better example for young Christians. But, then again, what do I know? However, that's my 'take' on the ongoing situation, and "I'm right, no matter what," attitude being displayed, a large portion of the time, on Joel's Blog :(
I love you, and may God bless you, and yours! And remember that the joy of the Lord is your strength!
I'm still posting at Joel's Marge. You are a great encourager.
Love from Kathy
Paul,
It strikes me as VERY odd that you would put God's word in the hands of scholars and think that they are what is needed to interpret the Bible. It sounds like what went on during the time of Christ with the Pharisees. I'm not calling you a Pharisee, but it was the Pharisees that were the "learned" ones that felt they had the last word because of their "expertise."
But http://www.prewrathrapture.com/
is run by the type you speak of. Cooper used to teach at, I think, Dallas, while
Alan K graduated from seminary and knows Greek backwards and forwards. And if you must know, most REAL scholars are post-trib, or even preterists. They FAR outweigh pre-trib scholars. So your point is kind of moot.
As for imminency, please present your strongest verse that supports imminency and I would be glad to explain why we don't believe it to teach an any moment return. You said quite a few times how clear it is, so we need to see what you mean in order to state our case to you. It may not do you any good, but it just might! Let's give it a go.
Dave
PS
Paul,
Ooops. Forgot. No, Rosenthal didn't come up with pre-wrath. Robert Van Kampen did and then taught it to Rosenthal, among many others.
Dave
Dave! Thank you! Now that’s what I’m talking about…
I’ve looked at prewrathrapture.com and I see that Cooper does have the qualifications of an “expert witness” on this topic, and so I’m looking forward to reading what he has to say. Please give me some time (a few days) to digest his numerous posts there, and then I’d love to come back here to chat with you all more.
So… you score big points with me by pointing me to Charles Cooper. Are there other scholars besides the ones on Cooper’s web site? And I’m still curious – are you aware of any seminaries that have adopted the pre-wrath view? If so, I’d love to hear about them. And in terms of scoring, I will be deducting points if you’re asking me to adopt a doctrinal position that’s not being taught as Biblical truth by any seminary anywhere in the world… That would be asking too much. :-)
Seriously – thank you for your help.
Paul
P.S. I’m trying to understand the pre-wrath view. I’ll be happy to engage (later) on the imminence doctrine, but you won’t convince me that pre-wrath is supportable by tearing down pre-trib. Even if pre-trib turns out to be wrong, it doesn’t logically follow that pre-wrath is necessarily right…
P.S.S. I am not happy with my Christian friends who are posting the current thread on Joel Rosenberg’s blog. Much of it is very distasteful and shows a lack of respect for God’s people. Kathy – I too think you should continue to post there. You’re one of the few who is staying above the fray…
God Bless.
Paul,
Back at Joel's I gave a synopsis of the prewrath view. Take a look at it there again, won't you? One does not need to be a scholar to dig into the Word and learn what it says.
Blessings to you Brother,
Kathy
Paul,
here is my response to your sincere questions. But, because of time restraints, I'll write them quickly without utilizing proper expository methods. Here we go...
1. Paul, with all due respect, I think that when it comes to imminency and whether it is clearly taught in scripture, the burden of proof lies with Pre-Trib proponents, because it is you who have made it the foundation of your eschatological belief system. As such, everything else is built on that one premise or assumption. Is that not so? But, I’m glad you raised that issue; because, indeed those commonly cited verses are “debatable”. But, when building an eschatological belief system, one must first start with verses, which are clear and direct. Once that solid foundation is laid and established, then one can began to build a strong framework and so-forth. The point is that the vague and debatable verses must therefore be subjected to clear and direct verses. You should never build on assumption, symbolic language, and wishful thinking. Because then, you are forced to somehow conform and compromise scripture just to support that one pre-supposition you begin with.
2. Paul, you and I know that there are scholars and teachers in all eschatological camps. There are some who are Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib., Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib., Partial Preterists, Full Preterists, Historicists, Idealists, Pre-Millennial, Post-Millennial, Amillennial, etc… So, frankly, that argument of scholarly support, is weak. But, if you want the names of individuals, who are Pre-Wrath, whom I consider scholars, here they are:
(1.)Charles Cooper
(2.)Roger Best
(3.)Alan Kurchner
They can be found at http://www.prewrathrapture.com/
(4.)Robert Van Kampen(book- THE SIGN) http://www.solagroup.org/
(5.) Roy A. Reinhold[WHOM I Highly RECOMMEND](book-THE DAY OF THE LORD: PROPHECY REVEALED, published in 1986.) http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Siteindex.html
3. the Apostle Paul said in 2nd Thessalonians 2 (NASB)
(1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him [in the clouds-THE RAPTURE],
(2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the Day of the Lord [the DAY OF HIS WRATH or VENGEANCE] has come.
(3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [THE RAPTURE AND THE DAY/TIME OF WRATH] will not come unless the APOSTASY comes FIRST, and the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS [THE ANTI-CHRIST] is revealed [at the ABOMINATION of DESOLATION, in the middle of Daniel’s 70th Week], the son of destruction [the FIRST BEAST, who is allotted a 42-month reign]…
TO SUM UP: The Apostasy and the revealing of the Anti-Christ happen first. And then the Rapture occurs and the Day of His Wrath gets underway.
4. Dr Walter Kaiser, former dean at Trinity Seminary, who is considered one of the finest OT scholars of our day, said “The Pre-Wrath position is the prophetic position that best understands and properly applies OT prophecy concerning the Day of the Lord as it relates to the 2nd coming of Christ. If the fathers of dispensationalism had been able to choose between the pretribulation and the pre-wrath views, the pre-wrath position would have received their vote, hands down”
5. At the end of "that Day", as you said, the anti-christ and his side-kick are “toast”, while Christ and His bride will be heading into the Millennium.
6. 50 lb. bags of dried beans? Hmmm… Translates to a lot of burritos!!!
7. About the flesh dictating our emptions and thus influencing our acceptance of Spiritual truth. Consider this: Romans 8:5 (NASB)
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Just my thoughts, Raul
Raul,
You are a gem.
Paul, I really hope Raul helped you. I'm praying for you as you grapple with all of this.
Grace to You my Friend,
Kathy
(Burritos, I'm still chuckling!)
How about we start commenting at the newest post?
Paul,
"One of the many encouraging comments to us was made by Dr. Walter Kaiser, the former dean of faculty at Trinity Seminary, [president of Gordon-Conwell Theological seminary and noted Old Testament scholar], who made the observation that the prewrath position is the only prophetic position that properly understands and utilizes Old Testament prophecy concerning the Day of the Lord. He also stated that if the fathers of dispensationalism had had the choice between pretrib and prewrath, he genuinely believed that the prewrath position would have gotten their vote, hands down."
Katherine,
Thanks for your committment to the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Alan posted my testimony on the PreWrathRapture.com website several months ago and I am really looking forward to being in Orlando in January.
A couple of things that came to mind as I read your post and as I read the comments.
You need to realize that Joel Rosenberg is very tightly involved with the Calvary Chapel ministry. I have heard him speak several times at events that Chuck Smith conducted. So he is going to tow the line with them very closely.
My family and I attend the Calvary Chapel in Castle Rock, Colorado. We really love the church and we love the teaching however I do adhere to Pre-Wrath for exactly all of the reasons that you have listed. I have had several conversations with my Pastor who has a tremendous heart for the word of God, Christ and the Cross. He refuses to even discuss the matter with me. So he really does not want us to be Berean, unless that means reading the scripture and reaching the same conclusion he teaches. I don't think that was what Christ admonished us to do. In his defense, to believe anything else other than Pre-Trib would cost him his position within Calvary Chapel. Obviously God is big enough to provide for him without Calvary Chapel.
When he has taken the time to listen to me, not discuss just listen, he always comes back to me with Romans 5:9. I did some research and found it very interesting that I Thessalonians 5:9 also teaches that we will be kept from the wrath of God. Of course, he assumes that the 70th week of Daniel is the wrath of God.
What was most compelling to me in my research was that while they both teach that we will be kept from the wrath, Romans 5:9 gives no indication as to when that wrath occurs. On the other hand, I Thessalonians 5:9 does tie that wrath directly to the Day of the Lord in the previous verses. Paul is speaking directly to the Day of the Lord, I believe in verse 3 and continues thru verse 9. To tie 'kept from the wrath' to anything other than the Day of the Lord is to take the verse completely out of context.
Keep up the good work and maybe I will get to meet you in Orlando in January.
In Him
Al
Todd Strandberg
After reading countless messages and articles that attack the pre-trib rapture, I've noticed a certain number of arguments that are repeatedly sent to me.
Instead of trying to answer every individual e-mail I receive, I thought it would be a good idea to create a web page that addresses the most commonly mentioned points of debate. This way, I can avoid repeating myself so many times; thereby, maintain my sanity.
Nowhere in the Bible, can you find the word "rapture"
It amazes me that some folks write to me, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible.
With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to “Catching Up Ready” to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things.
Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible. Let's take a look at 1 Thes 4:16-18 in the original Greek:
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4:16 oti autos o kurios en keleusmati en fwnh arcaggelou kai en salpiggi qeou katabhsetai ap ouranou kai oi nekroi en cristw anasthsontai prwton 4:17 epeita hmeis oi zwntes oi perileipomenoi ama sun autois arpaghsomeqa en nefelais eis apanthsin tou kuriou eis aera kai outws pantote sun kuriw esomeqa 4:18 wste parakaleite allhlous en tois logois toutois
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I don't see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from heaven, and us meeting Him in the air. So the cynics are right: the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All I see is gobbledygook.
For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up--it's all the same thing.
Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation.
Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation."
Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.
The Margaret MacDonald Origin
One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.
Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.
With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.
The Last Trumpet Argument
Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation.
When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.
In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?
If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.
With such a blind devotion to this one similarity, I have to wonder if these last-tumpeters are able to distinguish the difference between Tylenol and Exlax. They're both over-the-counter drugs, they come in pill form, and they can also be found in a medicine cabinet. Of course, one will make your headache disappear and the other will make your toilet paper disappear.
Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?
Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:
1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."
2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.
3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.
When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.
The Day of the Lord Argument
A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together.
The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night."
I've read countless articles that describe the "Day of the Lord" as Christ's advent at Armageddon. These articles go on to say that, because Paul also tells us the Lord will come "as a thief," we have a direct link to the same description that is applied to noted rapture verses.
It's rather obvious that those trying to rely on the "Day of the Lord" never bothered to validate the meaning of this particular day. I've checked a number of commentaries on the "Day of the Lord" and many of them define this as being an all-encompassing period that begins with the Great Tribulation. Let's examine some verses that clearly indicate that the term "day" is used to represent a broader time period.
II Peter 3:10-13
The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.
Joel 2:11-20
The "Day of the Lord" Joel describes, includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezk. 38 and 39 is parallel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation.
John 12:48
In the book of John, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium--yet another 1000 year gap.
Hebrews 10:25
One of the best indications that most of the various “day” references are citing a general time period can be found in Hebrews 10:25: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
Surely, Paul would not be warning us to watch for a day that would be coming at the end of the tribulation. That type of logic would be like warning children, as they cross the road, to watch out for tail lights.
The First Resurrection
I've heard some folks say, "There cannot be a pre-trib rapture because to have one would require a second resurrection at Christ's return to earth." This conclusion is drawn from Revelation 20:
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6).
One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.
A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).
Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.
Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thes 2:1-6
Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.
To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.
I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.
Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
Reverse Logic Stuck In Reverse
Many people are against the pre-trib rapture simply because they see it as being the dominant view on the timing of Christ's return for the Church. The anti-pretribulationists often think they are the last remaining true believers. I'm simply dumbfounded over why some people choose rebellion against the majority view as their guide for finding truth.
The measurement of popularity alone is a terrible way to determine something's validity. It is particularly strange when people solely rely on the contrarian view to judge truth from fiction. I utilize contrarian views all the time to help determine what is truthful; however, it would be a terrible mistake on my part if I made Contrarianism the core foundation of any of my beliefs.
If you're using reverse logic, you need to support your conclusions. The vast majority of the population would agree that apples grow on apple trees and cherries grow on cheery trees. The pure novelty of the opposite being true does not in any way help make it so. Unless you see farmers gluing apples onto cherry trees or picking cherries from apple trees, you have no basis to think that these two fruits do not grow on anything but the trees that share the same name.
Some people are clearly more in love with the idea of a conspiracy than they are the truth. Every time an airplane crashes to the earth there's someone who will proclaim it was caused by anything from an act of terrorism to a bizarre government plot. It's just not exciting enough to say it was a mechanical problem that led to the crash.
The idea that the pre-trib rapture is the dominant view is not correct in the first place. Most evangelicals would say they look for a pre-trib rapture, but if you include all Christians, pretribulationists would rank third behind post-trib and preterist adherents.
Persecute Me Please
You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.
Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.
I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
In one regard, people who think the Church will go through the tribulation are somewhat correct. I believe there will be a huge number of "carnal Christians" that will find themselves left behind. By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those who find themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse.
No Secret Rapture
"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.
I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pretribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.
The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."
No Imminency
Because an imminent or any moment rapture is one of the major teachings of pre-tribulationists, opponents of this view attempt to dismantle the imminency of the rapture.
Although Jesus said, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Mat 24:42), advocates for knowing the "day" will claim this only applies to the unsaved. I hear arguments like, "Surely a loving father would tell his own children when he's coming for them."
To try to get around "no man know the hour," a popular scripture often cited is: "But yea brethren, are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thes 5:4).
Despite all their monkeying with scripture, pre-trib detractors just cannot escape Jesus' restriction against knowing the timing of the rapture. In fact, our Lord was so restrictive about the rapture, He said its occurrence would come as a total surprise. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).
Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming.
The Restrainer
In 2 Thessalonians the Apostle Paul speaks of a "he" that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer's removal is required before the Antichrist can be revealed.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."
A debate has erupted over the identity of the Restrainer because if this "he" is the Holy Ghost, the only real explanation for his removal would be the rapture of the Church, which is indwelled by him. The strongest argument offered against the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer is the belief that if God's Spirit was ever removed from the earth, no one could then be saved. The removal of the Holy Ghost does not have to be an all or nothing proposition. I believe his being "taken out of the way" will only be a degree of removal.
Before the Church Age, people were able to find salvation, which obviously meant the Holy Spirit was at work on earth. When the outpouring of the Holy Ghost occurred at Pentecost, we didn't have a second Holy Spirit come to earth. His removal at the rapture will only be a reversal or ending of the Pentecostal outpouring.
Replacementism
Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.
Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.
Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.
To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).
"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).
Al,
Thanks so much for the encouragement. I really appreciate it. And welcome.
Kathy
Everyone,
ps...Let's move to the newest post for commenting.
Kathy,
As much as I feel you have the right to state your position on the Rapture, it may be prudent to take the suggestion, that I believe someone by the name of Josh proposed. And that would be to invite everyone to read your Blog, on each of Joel's new Blogs. Just a thought, as it appears there are people that are reaching their saturation point, with your views :) Just a thought, as it's important to keep walking in love, even when others aren't interested in what you have to say, etc. :(
Anyhow, have a great weekend!
I've got to think about getting ready to go to work :) Love you!
Marge,
We were thinking the exact same thing. I already left an invitation at Joel's.
Have a great weekend yourself.
Love from Kathy
Kathy,
Yes! I do believe it was the Holy Spirit.
Do think about inviting people to come visit your Blog, though. Because it's a great idea!
You have planted seed, and have gotten people to think. And that's a 'God thing,' IMO.
Paul,
Glad I could score some points with you! Just try to contact me here when you have an imminent verse that you would like to to answer a question about (or anything else). If it's hard to get me here, hit me up on my blog where I'll be sure to find you. Happy hunting!
Dave
Al said:
"My family and I attend the Calvary Chapel in Castle Rock, Colorado. We really love the church and we love the teaching however I do adhere to Pre-Wrath for exactly all of the reasons that you have listed. I have had several conversations with my Pastor who has a tremendous heart for the word of God, Christ and the Cross. He refuses to even discuss the matter with me."
hee hee. I chuckled when I read this because I used to be a pre-trib, Jacobus Arminius-following Calvary Chapel-ite in the 90s. I attended Calvary Chapel Seal Beach (now CC Pacific Coast). I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard a Calvary Chapel pastor say "I believe in a 'pan-trib' view...that it will all pan out in the end..."
I'm now a pre-wrath Calvinist no longer attending a Calvary Chapel. I appreciate the Calvary Chapel movement for leading the way in reaching out to a group of people (the hippies of the 70s) that wasn't being reached, but God bless you for trying to have a deep doctrinal conversation about such subjects there...!
All,
Thanks so much for the discussion. I think I'm going to disengage at this point. I think it unlikely that any of us will change our minds as a result of discussion in this forum. I'm firmly in the pre-trib camp and plan on staying there. I think Stacey's long post on Joel Rosenberg's blog (at 5:57) gives a much more eloquent defence of the pre-trib position than I ever could.
God Bless. See you all in Heaven.
Paul
Hi Everyone,
I'm just going to go with this original post. When the comment count gets really high, I'll probably remove them and then start over.
Paul,
Thanks for the discussion.
Here are the web addresses that Raul gave on the other post:
Ron Wallace's Answer to Todd Strandberg: http://www.biblefragrances.com/studies/defense.html
Dr. Finley's article on the restrainer:
http://endtimepilgrim.org/restrainer.htm
Stacy,
You are still welcome at any time.
Robert,
I thank you for your encouragement.
Jim,
Hope you'll still visit too.
I'm going to try those links again so all you have to do is click on them.
Click here for Ron Wallace's gracious answer to Todd Strandberg.
Click here for Dr. Finley's article on the restrainer. I believe he holds the post trib position.
Recovering,
I just realized I never said hi. Glad you could visit.
Al,
I was tickled to discover today that my testimony was posted on Prewrathrapture.com I would love to make it to the conference in January but I've a wedding shoot at that time. I am a part time photographer. To visit "Shutterblog" and see some of my photos click here.
Hi mom! I love you! I am very very proud to call you my mother! :)
Hi Annie,
I love you too and I'm so thankful you are my sweet daughter.
Mom
There's a new post Everyone!
I would love to get anyone's opinion of historian Dave MacPherson's web articles including "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "X-Raying Margaret," "Letter from Mrs. Billy Graham," and "Deceiving and Being Deceived" (the last one analyzes the Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards claims re the pretrib origin). He has spent decades researching all this and has found many early "rapture" documents in British libraries that other scholars somehow overlooked. Thanks for your time and opinions.
Clara
There's a new and truly different rapture article on the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site entitled "Pretrib Rapture Desperados." Don't read it if you are afraid of shocks. Irv
The most important evidence for when the Lord's return and our gathering occurs is in Scripture. That is where one must start and ultimately end. Thanks for dropping in Clara and Irv.
Kathy,
The problem here is that you are missing a few key passages. Let me show you just a few:
Revelation 2:22
"Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds."
Here, Jesus is speaking to the church of Thyatira, which is the modern day Catholic church. Now if these people repent, what happens? Does Jesus keep them out of the tribulation?
Revelation 3:10
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
Here, Jesus is speaking to the faithful church, the church of Philadelphia, and He is promising to keep them from the tribulation.
Also, there are two Greek words, with two completely different meanings that pertain to the day of the Lord, but they didn't translate into English very well.
One is "Harpazo" where the church is taken up to meet the Lord in the air. Jesus never steps foot on the earth, and it happens on a typical work day. (Matthew 24:40-41)
The other is "Episunogogues" which is the gathering (Matthew 24:29-31), that happens when all hell is breaking loose on the earth, and men and kings are running into caves calling for the rocks to fall on them to hide them from His face. Jesus steps foot on the Mount of Olives and it splits in two.
These are two separate events! Now here's something interesting. Jesus said that "no man knows the day or the hour" right?
But Daniel says that after the abomination of desolation, there will be 1,290 days until Jesus' return. But wait a minute! Did Jesus say, "no man knows the day or hour.....oh....except for Daniel?" So, we have to be talking about two different events here! Harpazo and Episunogogues.
Dear Friend,
Seven years ago I would have wanted to argue with you. Not now. The important thing is that we love the One who loved us and gave Himself for us, above all others, and anything else. The important thing is that we be ready to die for Him. He may call us to do that. It would be a great honor, wouldn't it?
Kathy,
We are told in the book of Jude to "contend" for the faith.
contend - To strive in controversy or debate; dispute.
That doesn't mean argue or personal attacks, it means that we discuss the issues and present our evidence. That's how we learn from one another. If the great Bible Scholars of previous generations did not discuss these things, they would have missed quite a lot of Biblical conclusions.
Scripture can never contradict other parts of Scripture. If that happens, it means that we've misinterpreted something. We must compare everything against Scripture.
If there is no pre-trib Rapture, then it makes Jesus out to be a liar on at least 3 different occasions. That's a huge problem for me! I don't know about you, but I just don't have the guts to call my Lord and Savior a liar, do you??? That's why we must be very careful when we make statements that contradict what Jesus has said.
As far as dying for Him, I think picking up our crosses and following Him daily, is much more difficult, especially in the evil world that we live in.
God bless.
In the book of Revelation, the church is mentioned 19 times in Chapters 1-3. Then look what happens!
Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
John has been making continual references to the church up to this point. There is a formula that has been addressed to the Church seven times in Chapters 2 and 3. It says, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 29, 3:6, 12, 22). This exact formula is then repeated again during the Tribulation, but look at the difference.
Revelation 13:9-10
He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
This is extremely strong evidence for the Church’s absence during the Tribulation! The formula is exactly the same as the one given in Chapters 2 and 3, BUT the word “Church” is left out!
Now, here is another VERY interesting point! When the apostle John is caught up to heaven in Revelation 4, he sees seven lamps of fire burning before the throne of God.
Revelation 4:5
From the throne came flashes of lighting, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.
These seven lamps first appeared on earth in Revelation 1:12-20. Now look closely at verse 20.
Revelation 1:20
“The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.”
Did you just catch that?? The seven lamps ARE the seven churches! Now, in Revelation 4:5, where are the seven lampstands? They are in heaven before the throne of God!! That is HUGE!!
Also, John says that the seven lamps are the Spirits of God. Now if God’s Holy Spirit dwells within us, then this would be another reference to the Church!
The Church doesn’t specifically reappear until just before the Second Coming of Christ to the earth.
Revelation 19:7-10
“Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints). Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
Revelation 19:14
The armies of heaven were following Him, riding white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
The bride (the Church) is in heaven, already rewarded and prepared for a great wedding feast. The Lord Jesus Christ begins His Second Coming to earth, and the bride then accompanies Him to the earth on white horses wearing the white linen of her righteous deeds. Those who don't believe in a pre-trib Rapture have to do some fancy footwork to try and explain these verses away.
This is just the tip of the iceberg with the "no Rapture" theory.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
If the Church was on the earth and Raptured just before the Second Coming (as Post Triulationalists say) then all martyred Tribulation saints would be part of the Church and would have to be raised before the living believers could be changed into immortality. But, that is not what Scripture says! Paul says that the dead in Christ are raised first, not the Tribulation saints.
Also, look at the beginning of verse 16 above. “…a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God…”
Now, compare that with what John says in Revelation 4:1: “…the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” Sounds like Paul and John are talking about the exact same event!
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
The phrase, “…supposed to have come from us…” brings out the real problem that Paul tries to correct. Someone had brought a message to the Thessalonians, saying that it came from Paul, and it said the Day of the Lord had already come. Notice Paul’s reference to the Rapture here, “…our being gathered to Him…”
Now, we have to consider something here. Why were the Thessalonians unsettled and alarmed? If Paul had taught them that the Rapture comes after the Tribulation (Day of the Lord), these people would have been rejoicing because the Lord’s coming for them would have been very close. They would have faced the Tribulation (Day of the Lord) with hope and commitment, knowing that the Rapture was very close!
But, if Paul had taught them that the Rapture came before the Tribulation (Day of the Lord), and the Thessalonians received a false message, supposedly from Paul, that they were already in the Tribulation (Day of the Lord), they would have been unsettled and alarmed because they would have understood that to mean that they missed the Rapture!
Again, two different words, with two different meanings:
Harpazo - meaning "caught up" and happens during a typical work day, one is taken, one is left (Matthew 24:40-41), the church meets Jesus in the clouds, Jesus never steps foot on the earth.
Episunogogues - the Second Coming, happens when all hell is breaking loose on the earth (Matthew 24:29-31), all eyes will see Him step foot on the Mount of Olives and it splits in two and water comes forth. The church arrives with Jesus, riding white horses, Jesus is just returning from a wedding (Luke 12:36). You can't have a wedding without the Bride.
Is it becoming more clear now?
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