Joel 2:31: "The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
Matthew 24:29: "But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken..."
Joel places the triple cosmic sign before the day of the LORD. Matthew places it immediately after the tribulation. Therefore, the day of the LORD does not include the tribulation but occurs after the tribulation.
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Kathy,
You have made the classic mistake most western Christians do.
Joel was writing to the JEWS. Jesus, when he was giving what is commonly termed the Olivet Discourse, was addressing his JEWISH disciples, and answering their questions as they pertained to Israel, and the second coming of THEIR Messiah. This was BEFORE the start of the Church age - the disciples had NO inkling of the plan God had for the Gentiles at this point in time. Their questions to Jesus reflect this. Jesus was also referring to Daniel's end times prophecies - which again were addressed to the Jews, NOT the Church.
This thinking has come into many discussions on eschatology, because we forget that Judaism is the NATURAL vine, while we, the Christians, are the WILD vine, grafted in by God. This thinking is an offshoot of Replacement Theology, which has been promulgated, in one form or another, throughout Church history, even from the time of the early Church fathers.
The Bible is predominately a JEWISH book. Not everything is either addressed TO the Church, nor is it ABOUT the Church. The Church did not exist until AFTER Jesus' resurrection.
The 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are written primarily to Jews, concerning THEIR Messiah. They are a record of what Jesus did as the last Prophet to the House of Israel - in His words "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.". He only become the Saviour of the world AFTER His resurrection and ascension.
Paul's Gospel was written to the Gentiles who would become the Church - those who made Jesus Christ their Lord (which has to happen before He can become their savior - not the other way around).
Even after Paul's arrival on the scene as an apostle, the rest of the church leaders had a hard time reconciling what they saw as an extension of their Jewish religion - which had become know as "The Way" by other Jews - with Paul's revelation that the Gospel was for the WHOLE world - Gentiles included.
This puts a WHOLE different spin on the terms "Day of the Lord", as referred to in the OT and in the 4 main Gospels, and Paul's introduction of the "Day of Christ" - which, according to the original Greek in 2 Thessalonians, are NOT the same thing at all. Even the English translation, in its use of the word "Now" in 2 Thess 2:1 indicates a different topic. This is its normal usage in English grammar and sentence structure.
Jesus is coming back the FIRST time "in the air" for believers. He is coming back a SECOND time in glory to rule the World - arriving back first in Bozrah, then proceeding to the Mount of Olives for the final showdown with the AC's forces at the Battle of Armegeddon (literally Har Meggido) - these are two totally different events.
We, the Church, are promised by God that we will be spared from the wrath of God, which is poured out in the days and weeks leading up to the Second coming of Jesus, in power and glory.
Firstly, the wrath of God is promise for unbeleivers NOT beleivers:
the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. [Col 3:6, NKJV]
and secondly, Paul writes that we are to be spared this wrath:
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. [Romans 5:9, NKJV]
You can argue that we, as the Church have to go through tribulation - but then that's a given - ever since the beginning of the Church age. The Great Tribulation cannot start until the AC (man of sin) is revealed, and according to both 2 Thessalonians and Revelation, there is a huge ingathering of the faithful ones (= beleivers) before this can happen - i.e. the Rapture. My personal belief is that there will be a Pre-Trib rapture, a second, mid- (or slightly later than mid) Trib rapture, and a third, pre-Wrath rapture, right at the end of the Great Tribulation period, just before the "bowls" of God's wrath are poured out on the world.
The AC's wrath will be predominately against the Jews and Israel, NOT against the Church, since it is the Jews that God has promised to rescue and save. The whole plan of Salvation is dependent on God's word for the Jews being fulfilled, according to the OT prophesies, and if Satan can somehow destroy the Jews and Israel, then he wins, God's promises are void, and the whole thing has been in vain.
Obviously, God will not let Israel be destroyed, nor will He allow all Jews to be wipes out - He even has a plan to hide them in the desert in Petra during the Great Tribulation (by the way this is where Bozrah is located - see above).
Anyway, this is my take on the subject
Boatman909,
I think that Pre-Tribbers like to conveniently pick and choose what they wish for Israel or the Church. If it's persecution and tribulation, then they argue it's meant for Israel. If it's blessing, oh that is meant for the Church. For instance, what about the Great Commission? That's in Matthew. And yet, we know that was intended for the Church. And, besides, how many Jewish people do you know of, who read the four gospels for an understanding of what awaits them in the future? No, Jesus was addressing fellow believers for the sake of future believers(us). One more thing, here is an example of this picking and choosing. Pre-tribbers argue that the Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 is meant solely for Israel; but, they conveniently turn around and say that the following verses, also in Matthew 24 are meant for the Church:
36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. 45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
You see what I mean. There has to be more consistency here. What we have in Matthew 24 is actually "dual or far and near prophecy". Some of it, like the destruction of the temple, was fulfilled in 70 AD. While, most of it is prophecy, which concerns BOTH Israel and the Church simultaneously and awaits future fulfillment(Daniel's 70th Week). But, make no mistake, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 give a general outline of end-times events like: the Abomination of Desolation, the Great Tribulation, the Cosmic Sign, and the gathering of the elect(The Rapture of the Church). I thus insist that these gospels and the rest of the New Testament are meant primarily for Christians and those considering and contemplating Christianity.
God Bless, Raul
Raul,
You too have made the same mistake. The 4 Gospels are primarily concerning Jesus' earthly ministry to the Jews. You say that because the Great Commission passages apply to the Church (I actually think that these will only be finally fulfilled when the 144,000 Jewish evangelists are sealed and sent out during the first part of the Tribulation period), that the rest of the Gospels must apply to the Church.
This is again because you forget that, until after Jesus' resurrection, and not until he had "breathed" on the disciples (John 20:22) does the "Church come into existence. Previous to that, Jesus was addressing His Jewish followers - which is why Matthew 24 is about and for the remnant of the Jews, NOT about the Church. The "elect" in Matthew 24 are the Jewish believers who will survive / live through the first part of the Tribulation.
John
John,
Are you saying that nothing in the book of John prior to chapter 20 verse 22 applies to us in the Church today?
boatman909,
First, you say I am making the same mistake. But, you fail to provide scriptural proof to back-up your assertion.
Second, most would agree that the final 7 year end-time period, which you incorrectly refer to as the "tribulation period" and should instead be referred to as Daniel's 70th Week, begins with the opening of the first seal. Yet, the 144,000 Jews aren't sealed til after the opening of the sixth seal. So, your assertion that they are sent out during the first part of the prophetic Week is baseless and flawd.
Third, speaking of the 144,000, many have incorrectly assumed that they are evangelists. When in fact, scripture doesn't explicitly say that. What we do know is that they are the "first fruits" of all Israel being saved according to Romans. And besides that, here is an interesting thing regarding this group. Notice that they aren't sealed prior to the opening of the first seal, which again starts the prophetic Week or what you refer to as the tribulation period. If they were going to evangelize in the first part of the so-called tribulation and thus needed to be supernaturally protected from being harmed, don't you think that they would have been sealed PRIOR to the opening of the first seal? But no, they are sealed AFTER the sixth seal is opened. Can't you see that poses a problem for you and for Pre-tribbers at large, who make the same assertion as you?
Fourth, the Rapture of the Church IS evident in Matthew 24 as believers are gathered from around the world after the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars appears, after the Great Tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, the Church. Which, by the way, is the same cosmic sign we see in Revelation 6 and in Joel 2 as Kathy pointed out. I mean, come on, how can you disregard all this evidence, which clearly supports a Pre-Wrath Rapture. You have to understand that both Kathy and I came from the Pre-Trib. camp. So, we are quite familiar with all the arguments that Pre-Tribbers make. But, after careful scriptural study, we concluded that Pre-Tribulationalism is full of conjecture and pre-suppositional thinking. That is why many have abandoned this fanciful pet-doctrine and have instead embraced solid, scriptural truth. The difference is that Pre-Tribbers approach prophetic scripture with certain pre-conceived ideas. And then, they conveniently twist scripture to try and conform it to their pre-conceived ideas. Pre-Wrathers approach the interpretation of prophetic text differently. We employ proper exegesis. Meaning, we approach the text with an open mind and then we carefully consider all the prophetic scriptures(the evidence, if you will) and then we extract what the text is clearly teaching and accept it as is. So, it not so much about our flawd will and desires, but rather about His perfect will and plan.
Look, I don't mean to offend you or anyone else reading this, but you owe it to yourself to at least put aside those same old arguments at least for a moment and then truthfully see the evidence without those Pre-Trib glasses. So, I invite you and others to at least hear what Pre-Wrathers have to say. Just like in a court of law, isn't it only fair and prudent to hear both sides present the evidence and then at the end render an impartial judgment?
Kathy,
Hi, have you ever participated in the following pre-wrath discussion forum which is moderated by H. L. Nigro and Ron Wallace? Recently, I have been interacting with a gentlemen from India (I believe?) who holds a doctorate degree and who recently published a pre-wrath book. The thing is that he presents a different variation of pre-wrath as oppose to classic pre-wrath. Anyway, check out the discussion and join the group if you're not a member there already. Here is the link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prewrathonly/
Oh yes Raul. I've visited there many times but just to read the comments and learn. It's been awhile however.
I love Ron Wallace's website and I've read Heidi's book.
Kathy,
Fantastic. By the way, did you hear Alan's news from the conference concerning the re-publication of the 3 rapture views book by Zondervan? Well, if you haven't, it appears that they feel that the Pre-Wrath View has now surpassed the Mid-Trib. View in popularity and thus they want to re-publish this popular book; but, this time it will consist of the Pre-Trib. View, the Pre-Wrath View, and the Post-Trib. View.
I did read that Raul. VERY exciting indeed! Lord-willing many more people will become familiar with the prewrath position. The Lord is gracious in opening this door so more of His Beloved will be prepared.
Raul,
Saturday night (Jan. 26th) a gentleman by the name of Jason Nightingale is going to recite the entire book of Revelation from memory at our church. That is his ministry. He has a huge, booming voice. I am so looking forward to it. It is sure going to take on a whole, new, and most wonderful meaning now that I understand the prewrath position. My husband and I just returned home tonight from church after listening to him recite the book of John from memory.
Kathy,
Wow! Impressive!
"He only became the Savior of the world AFTER His resurrection and ascension." ~ boatman909
I guess I am confused by this statement. Can we discuss this a little more? I know it might not have much to do with the tribulation discussion, but I would have thought Jesus has ALWAYS been the Savior of the world. If this is true then it seems that we as the Church should completely ignore anything He said in the gospels if He wasn't yet OUR Savior. ??????????????????????
Hi Sweet Annie (Annie is my daughter in case anyone is wondering),
I was thinking of John 3:16 when I asked John the question if he was saying that nothing applied to the Church prior to John 20:22. "For God so loved the world..." The world includes Jews and Gentiles. That verse applies to all. Jesus said in Mt. 28:20 to His disciples..."teaching them to observe ALL that I commanded you..." The Church needs to pay attention to all of Christ's words in the gospels, including those in Mt. 24, Mk.13, and Luke 21.
I love you!
Hi Annie,
You ask a very interesting and thought provoking question. I'll try and share a little insight into this. As you know, God(the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has always existed. But, for the sake of understanding, from our perspective, God foreknew in ages past that man would fall and that it would be impossible for him to redeem himself. As such, God predetermined that the Son would one day live among us as fully man, yet still fully God. God in human flesh, if you will. He certainly came to heal, comfort, exhort, teach, prophesy, etc.; but, first and foremost, He came to save that which was lost. He came to redeem man from his fallen state. But, the Son fully knew that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. And so, He willfully became the supreme sacrifice on that cross to pay for our iniquities. Now, we look back at what He accomplished on the Cross. Yet, the saints of old look forward, in faith, to such promises like what we read in Isaiah 53. And, remember their faith was counted as righteousness. Now, once that precious blood was shed and once He arose, our assurance of salvation was forever sealed and the accuser of the brethren (Satan) was defeated. Annie, I hope this helps a bit; but, I am sure much more could be said about all this.
God Bless, Raul
Thank you Raul, and blessings to you too.
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