Let’s first look at Mt. 24.
In verse 16 Jesus gives instructions to those who see the abomination of desolation spoken of by
Why?
Because following that “there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” (Mt. 24:21)
The Greek word used for tribulation in this verse is “thlipsis”. It can be translated as pressure, affliction, anguish, persecution, or tribulation as it is here.
Who is going to suffer during this time of unprecedented pressure and affliction?
Revelation
Who is responsible for this affliction?
In Revelation 12:7-9 we learn of a coming war:
“And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon (Satan). And the dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”
In Rev. 12:12 the heavens are told to rejoice. Then a woe is given to the earth and the sea. Why? “…because the devil has come down to you, having great WRATH, knowing that he has only a short time.”
Revelation
This time of affliction is clearly the result of Satan’s oppression via the beast. In Revelation 13 we are told that the dragon (Satan) gives the beast his power and those who do not worship the image of the beast are killed.
Based on these passages, the prewrath position views the affliction of Israel and then the genuine Christians, those who hold to the testimony of Jesus, not those who fall away during the great tribulation of Mt. 24, as coming from Satan.
When the Lamb breaks the fifth seal in Revelation 6:9 John sees underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of their testimony. These souls hold to their testimony of Jesus. The beast kills them for refusing to worship his image. They cry out with a loud voice and ask the Lord how long until He avenges their blood. They are not confused. These souls recognize that their deaths were not a result of the wrath of the Lamb. He tells them to wait a little while longer. When the Lamb breaks the sixth seal, the sun will go black, the moon will become like blood, the sky will split apart and the earth dwellers will see Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb. They desire for the rocks to fall on them and hide them. Why? Revelation
Luke 21:25,26: “And there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars, and upon the earth dismay among the nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”
Romans 12:19b: “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 1:6-8: “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.”
The great tribulation is Satan’s wrath on believers, those who obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus. God’s wrath is aimed at unbelievers, those who do not obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus and give their allegiance to the beast.
On a day and hour known only by the Father, His Son will return and cut short the affliction against His elect. The natural lights will go out and the stars will fall from the sky as it splits apart. The glory of the Son will radiate across the sky. He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Mt. 24:22, 29-31, 36)
Luke 21:27,28: “And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
The elect will be rescued, and then God’s wrath will fall…
Not all of
31 comments:
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Some thoughts about Raul’s comments, a couple of posts ago - Raul said:
“About the Pre-Trib. View being the prevailing view, I would just interject that it certainly is the most appealing to the flesh. It's the easy way out. In other words, ESCAPISM based on fanciful and wishful thinking (how convenient). It is no wonder that a large segment of the Western Church is so superficial and lukewarm with itching ears for sermons about prosperity and the easy life and easy exit (so, so sad).”
I find the comments both amusing and specious. I’d like to set the record straight here because I’ve heard this said before. This may be true for some, however…
Having come from a Catholic & New Age background, I initially found the rapture teaching fanciful, regardless of its timing. In fact, my prayer had always been to be left behind if there really was a rapture so that I could look after my family. My pre-trib belief stems from study not ESCAPISM. The rapture timing is not my primary focus at all. We don’t know when He will come and our work is to witness and occupy until He does. This may bring persecution and even martyrdom before that happens and we see this already occurring in many other parts of the world. I constantly pray to be ready in my Faith if I am so tested.
Also, in the past ten months I’ve become a member of Jack Kinsella’s Omega Letter. Jack’s teaching is dispensational, pre-mil and pre-trib. Raul, you would do well to join up if only to allay your concerns regarding pre-tribulational escapism. Far from that, these people have a “Blessed Hope” derived from scripture - NOT FEAR. All those I’ve spoken with are ready for persecution or martyrdom if that comes before the rapture. It is a commonly expressed sentiment that if we are wrong about the rapture; the AC shows up and we are called upon to take the Mark then we become martyrs just like the apostles. I can tell you that several of these people are already under so many trials and pressures that death would actually be a relief. One, in particular, has been an incredible inspiration to me. Also note that the pre-trib thinking requires one to be ready to meet the Lord at ANY TIME. Remember the oil in the lamp?
Which brings me to another point - in my time with the Omega Letter, we’ve had various “other rapture theorists” join and try to convert the others on the pretext that pre-tribbers will suddenly wake up to the fact that they haven’t been raptured - will be asked to take the Mark – and will most likely perish or whatever. Anybody want a “Once Saved Always Saved” debate? Once their fears have been allayed they continue to debate the issue causing dissension. This leads me to conclude, at least in the aforementioned cases, that their motives need to be re-examined.
Finally, linking pre-trib ESCAPISM with your last sentence is somewhat cavalier. The problems with the Western Church can be linked to the post-modern/seeker sensitive churches who question the Bible’s inerrancy and Christ’s work on the cross, not with pre-trib rapture ESCAPISM.
See you in Heaven for a well-earned coffee with the other saints!
YBIC
mac
Mac,
You said that you found my comments "amusing, specious, and cavalier". WELL EXCUSE ME! Not really, I'm just joking folks, so relax. Mac, you certainly have a right to your opinion and I respect your objection, which is fully noted. I liked the word "specious". Although, I admit that I had to look it up. Thanks, I'll add it to my vocabulary and then re-use it on a Pre-Tribber one day(just joking again).
You said, "Having come from a Catholic & New Age background." Hey, me too, I also came from Catholicism. I'm glad we both left it. New Age? Ooo, Creepy
You said, "My pre-trib belief stems from study not ESCAPISM." Question: Studying solely Pre-Trib materials? OR Studying "sola scriptura" first and then examening ALL eschatological views in light of scripture, which is usually not the case with Pre-Tribulationalists? They read the many Pre-Trib. materials that are readily available and then surmise(how did you like that word) that the position is Biblical simply because many teach it and repeat it over and over.
About your statement saying that perhaps Christians will have to face persecution or even martyrdom at the hands of the A/C. Wow, I applaud your openess, which is rare and refreshing, because most in the Pre-Trib. camp would GASP at that suggestion. They would probably accuse you of not having a proper understanding of Pre-Tribulationalism and the Blessed Hope. Mac, you're sounding more like a Pre-Wrather or Post-Tribber(ha-ha). But, seriously, many have indeed been experiencing persecution and death for the cause of Christ throughout the world like in Korea, China, the arab countries, etc. But, scripture plainly teaches that the Great Tribulation will be the "greatest tribulation" that believers will be subjected to-both in intensity and scope; hence the term, "Great Tribulation". Matthew 24:21-22 state "For then there will be great distress(Great Tribulation), unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect(Christians) those days will be shortened."
You mentioned "Jack Kinsella" Hmmm, I think I've heard of him before?
You said, "Far from that, these people have a “Blessed Hope” derived from scripture - NOT FEAR." YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT!!, it is a "Blessed Hope" based on improper exegesis of scripture. Our "Blessed Hope" is our Lord taking us before the Day of His Wrath period, which again, is not same period as the Great Tribulation Period. And Mac Daddy, I submit to you that MOST in the Pre-Trib. camp are indeed FEARFUL of being "left behind" and facing persecution and martyrdom at the hands of the A/C. I just wonder what all the Christian martyrs in history must be thinking about that. Why should we fear the A/C and his sidekick, who can destroy only the body? Shouldn't we "not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Instead we should "...be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28).
And yes, at the heart of Pre-Tribulationalism is the false doctrine of Imminency, which is not taught in scipture. It is a pre-supposition that is unfairly imposed on scripture. Sounds great for "itching ears", but flaud and baseless nontheless.
You said, "This leads me to conclude, at least in the aforementioned cases, that their motives need to be re-examined." I concur, we all need to check our motives and emotions when discussing and dividing the Word. Like I said in another post, God help us ALL.
You said, "The problems with the Western Church can be linked to the post-modern/seeker sensitive churches who question the Bible’s inerrancy and Christ’s work on the cross, not with pre-trib rapture ESCAPISM." I agree to a point. There are many problems and issues that beset the Western Church beyond what we have briefly touched upon, but my point remains the same. Many in America, who belong to "Word of Faith/TBN/Seeker Friendly/Purpose Driven/" churches also hold to the "POPular" Pre-Trib View. That was the "segment" of the Western Church that I was referring to in my previous post. Not to suggest that it's the only segment that is in error. But, that's for another discussion.
Oh, one more thing, I'll take my coffee with extra sugar and cream, please. Gotta go. Talk to you later.
Hi Mac,
Thanks for dropping by.
You may or may not have read my testimony that I held to pretrib because it is what I grew up with. Moving to the prewrath position is a result of study for me just as you say it is the reason you hold to pretrib. It is unlikely therefore that we will change each other’s positions.
I would like to tell you an interesting story however. A month or so ago we were studying Mark 13 in our Ladies Bible Study at church. (The vast majority of the believers in my church hold to the pretrib position.) After someone read verses 19-27 where it talks about the days of tribulation being cut short for the sake of the elect and then the Son of Man coming in the clouds and the angels gathering the elect, a friend made this comment, “Boy, that sure sounds like us!”
I really think it is that plain and simple.
Whenever the elect are mentioned in the New Testament it always refers to those Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ.
This friend came up to me afterwards and commented that she could tell I’d been studying. I told her that I believe the conclusion she had come to by a simple reading of the text is the correct conclusion. I asked her if she would like a paper of my study which is the first article on my blog. She replied, “Oh yes!” I gave one to her the very next Sunday. The following Sunday I asked her if she’d read it. Her response, “No, I’m scared to.”
This dear sister in Christ is holding on to a pretrib rapture. Why? Because it removes her from the time of unprecedented persecution coming upon Israel and those who hold to the testimony of Jesus, the elect.
Here in America believers do not face persecution like believers in other parts of the world. For the most part our lives are very comfortable.
There is coming a time of unprecedented persecution against Israel and God’s elect. Whatever one’s eschatological position, as believers, we all need to be prepared to suffer persecution for the sake of Christ. Like you, I pray I will be ready whether it comes during that time or any other. We should also pray for those who are already suffering persecution. When one member of the Body suffers, we all suffer.
In Grace,
Kathy
Mac,
One more thing concerning "coffee". Do you think that there will be Starbucks in heaven? Why not, they're everywhere, right? Oh, but wait, they can't be in heaven. Remember, no thieves will be allowed($4.00 coffee, give me a break). I'm just joking Starbucks employees.
“They read the many Pre-Trib. materials that are readily available and then surmise (how did you like that word) that the position is Biblical simply because many teach it and repeat it over and over.”
I try to examine everything to the best of what God has given me, which is why I’m slow at coming to final conclusions (apart from the fact that I’m not very smart). Do you? In fact, I initially looked at data opposing the pre-mil & dispensational positions; the traditional Seal judgement timing in the 70th week; the timing of the Gog and Magog war and different rapture theories etc. To be perfectly frank, the rapture isn’t a major focus of the OL site.
“And yes, at the heart of Pre-Tribulationalism is the false doctrine of Imminency, which is not taught in scipture. It is a pre-supposition that is unfairly imposed on scripture. Sounds great for "itching ears", but flaud and baseless nonetheless.”
That’s fine and you’re welcome to your opinion. I would never presume to try to change anyone’s eschatological viewpoint. Let me quote one of my friends regarding the timing of the rapture:
“A s I have grown in Christ, I have realized my faith is in Jesus not the Rapture. Jesus said occupy till He comes so that is sort of my plan. I can make as good of a pre-wrath argument as I can a pre-trib argument. Personally though, my pre-trib argument is better so until I see the man of sin revealed or I am raptured I will remain a pre-trib person. My main thought on the rapture being post trib is so what if it is? If you can't live for Jesus today you won't be able to die for Him later. Some have told me I need to "get prepared" for the coming tribulation. Seems a very prideful statement to me. I rely on the Lord now and trusting the Lord certainly would be the only thing I could do during the trib so short of growing to a mature faith how else do they suggest I should be "getting prepared?" Seems to me saying I need to get prepared is about elevating man...”
Keep your ears from itching by all means!
”And Mac Daddy, I submit to you that MOST in the Pre-Trib. camp are indeed FEARFUL of being "left behind" and facing persecution and martyrdom at the hands of the A/C.”
I submit to you that MOST Christians are FEARFUL of persecution & martyrdom. Are you claiming some sort of bravado or high moral ground because of your rapture position? So, if I suddenly use exegesis instead of eisegesis and become a pre-wrather, I then somehow also grow larger gonads? I wonder if that would help my bench press? Probably not. I don’t think there have been too many martyrs and persecuted Christians who haven’t been frightened at some stage. So what? I certainly would be afraid and most of my pre-trib friends would be too. But our belief isn’t shaped by our fear – that would be foolish. If we are wrong about the rapture, then we go into the tribulation – as simple as that. Are you inferring a covert reason for pre-tribbers holding to a pre-trib position?
"I agree to a point. There are many problems and issues that beset the Western Church beyond what we have briefly touched upon, but my point remains the same. Many in America, who belong to "Word of Faith/TBN/Seeker Friendly/Purpose Driven/" churches also hold to the "POPular" Pre-Trib View. That was the "segment" of the Western Church that I was referring to in my previous post. Not to suggest that it's the only segment that is in error.”
Adding the “also hold to the “POPular" Pre-Trib View” to the end of your sentence suggests a bias against that view. Some of these churches don’t even believe in a rapture and yet are still error laden. The problems in Western churches are not symptomatic of a pre-trib belief but are driven by a getting away from God and His word. You can conclude that someone is in gross error when holding to a particular belief simply because of convenience. You might even conclude that some individuals are more likely to hold to a particular rapture view for the wrong reasons. But you couldn’t say that the pre-trib rapture is untenable because many hold to it for selfish reasons and come from "Word of Faith/TBN/Seeker Friendly/Purpose Driven/" churches. It appears that you’re implying that part of the reason the Western churches today are in trouble is associated to a pre-trib belief. Personally, I think that’s a broad subjective generalisation.
I like my coffee very strong :-)
Hi Katherine!
Gentlemen,
Please be just that. Don't forget, you are brothers in Christ.
In Grace,
Kathy
Mac,
I STRONGLY DISAGREE with you. I perceive you to be VERY smart. Now about Pre-Wrathers sounding like if we are somewhat more courageous than others is not so. In the flesh, we can be as weak as anyone else. But, if we all walk in the Spirit, then we can be empowered and emboldened as Peter and the 120 were after Pentecost. It was the same power that strengthened the apostles and believers, who ended up being persecuted and martyred. For we can do ALL things through Christ who strenghens us. And when we truly realize that God has not given us a Spirit of fear, then we can do great things, because it is He who is sustaining us. So, I believe that God has elected very special believers, whom he knows will not faint during the Great Tribulation. Just like He knew those three young Hebrews would not fail, but would trust in Him no matter what. So, He will also equip and strengthen believers during the Great Tribulation Period, no matter how hot the furnace gets. He has promised to never leave us nor forsake us. Now, one last comment about the state of the Western Church. That is something that I will just pray about, because ultimately we will ALL give an account, right? And, I'll leave it at that. Great discussion though, I hope we can continue as time permits. Gotta go...
Kathy,
Not to worry, Mac has been a gentleman, who has clearly exhibited the fruits of the Spirit and who has shared valuable insights. As for me, I pray that I haven't offended him or anyone else. If I have, I am truly sorry and I will tone it down. You have my word. God Bless you all in your studies and in your walk with Christ. Kathy, keep up the good work. Mac, I can't wait to share a cup of coffee with you in heaven.
Kathy,
Have you ever heard of Roy A. Reinhold? He has been teaching the Pre-Wrath position for a long time. In fact, I think he precedes other well-known Pre-Wrath authors/teachers. He lives in Colorado and he is so knowlegable about many things, especially theology and eschatology. He was the one, who introduced me to the Pre-Wrath View about 4 years ago. His website is ad2004.com. He has great articles there and he also has a discussion forum, where we have discussed many Biblical Topics and other things as well. If you have time, check it out. And, if you ever have a difficult question about theology or eschatology, feel free to ask him there on the discussion board or e-mail him. He is a great guy.
Hi Raul,
That name sounds familiar. I will check out the website. I probably won't be posting much for the remainder of the year and into January. My photography jobs are picking up so I will be rather busy. I will be spending a lot of time at the computer but it will be in Photoshop. Do drop in and say hola from time to time. =) The friend who pointed out prewrath to me came to the "prewrath" conclusion with some colleages while in Israel. That was back in the early 90s. They'd never heard of VanKampen or Rosenthal at the time. They knew pretrib just didn't fit but neither did post trib. When they were done with their study they called it posttrib-prepost, or something like that. They were very excited when they learned of VanKampen and Rosenthal's work.
2 Th. 2:15-17
In Christ,
Kathy
Kathy,
Since Joel hasn't posted a new Blog since Nov 5th, and people like me, on Dial Up can't get onto it anymore, Jib came up with the idea to go to the Copper Scroll Blog and post. We have no idea what's going on, with Joel, so right now we're putting together a care package for him :) Remember the Anonymous who said he was locked up in the ME awhile back? Anyway, come and join us, if you're not too busy :)
And Happy Thanksgiving to you, and to your family, too!
Love to you, and God bless!
Hi Marge,
I just had another wedding shoot so things are rather busy for me and will be through January.
Wishing you a blessed Thanksgiving too!
Love from Kathy
Kathy,
Thanks! And don't work too hard :)
Joel put up a new Blog this morning! I was wondering if he was actually going to continue on with the comment section, to be honest with you. And even on the new Blog, its over half Anonymous postings :( Time will tell, I suppose. (only 12, so far, though)
Enjoy the upcoming Holiday season, and God bless you, and yours!
Marge,
I can now say Merry Christmas! We had a wonderful Thanksgiving. We've been having dinner with our Pastor and his family for the last ten years or so. They've adopted us into their family as we don't have family around here. I haven't been to Joel's lately. Just really busy. Thanks for dropping in and saying hi!
Love from Kathy
Kathy,
Merry Chrsitmas back at ya :)
And if you visit Joel's Blog, today, you'll need a helmet, LOL. It seems that Teresita just won't give up, and no matter that she mixes pagan beliefs with the Bible, she 'thinks' she is always right. Wow! Although Wilma wrote a pretty humorous response to Teresita @ about 150 comments, as I recall. Not only funny, but very true!
I haven't been on the computer all that much either. A busy season!
I'm glad you had a nice Thanksgiving too! Enjoy the Season!
God bless,
Love,
Marge
Hi Marge!
Are you excited about the snow we are supposed to get on the first? I am. I know my granddaughter is! I pray for Teresita that she'll come to have a relationship with Christ.
Merry Christmas!
Love,
Kathy
Kathy,
I'm glad we escaped the snow :) But the flooding around the State? EEK! (we escaped that as well :)
I also agree with you, in prayer, that Teresita gets saved. However, I'm about ready to leave for work this evening, and oddly enough, your name came up on the Blog, because Teresita's comments were soooo 'out there' I told her so, and some Anonymous, (who I believe we both know, BTW, and will also ready this comment) compared your pre-wrath belief, with that of Teresita's out of context scriptures :( At any rare, it's the Blog, dated Dec. 4th, and around 100 comments. You may, or may not, want to check it out :)
God bless,
Love,
Marge
Hi Marge,
I agree 100% with you, Sola Scriptura, Scripture Alone!
You know I love you...
Kathy
ps...Are you ready for more snow??? They are talking about it for this weekend. =)
Actually, I don't know who the Anonymous is. Sounds like a sister in Christ? I would prefer to remain ignorant. I care for the both of you.
The flooding was horrendous! Our pond filled up in less than 24 hours and it is huge. I took some pics of it. You can view them by clicking here.
On the pond pics, click on slideshow, sit back, and enjoy!
Kathy,
No worries as to the Anonymous. However, IMO, it is the Poster who gave you a lot of flack to begin with, and has since (ahem) left Joel's Blog. (only in name, also IMO) However, I'm only 'scanning' Joel's Blog right now, as I'm only reading it to glean from the news articles, for the most part. As far as getting much of anything from the Bible there, anymore? Well, that is kinda sad, also IMO.
Hopefully, our snow will remain in the Mountains :) And the recent flooding? Wow!
We didn't have any problems, though.
Plus, I enjoyed viewing your pond? More like a mini lake right now, eh?
Anyway, have an excellent weekend, and as before, we are both believing for Teresita's salvation, amen?
Love,
Marge
P.S. I'm also quite sure that the Anonymous who thought I was being 'mean' reads just about everything printed :) And I love them, as well. However, I don't agree with them, about much of anything, from what they write.
My heart goes out to the Lord for Teresita. You have a blessed weekend and Lord's day too Marge.
Kathy,
A Merry Christmas to you, and your family!
Love,
Marge
Sweet Marge,
A very Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones also!
Love from Kathy
Kathy,
May you, and your family have a most Happy and prosperous New Year-2008! And may it be a year of new beginnings, (which the #8 means :) for all things good and beautiful!
Love,
Marge
Hi Marge,
How was your Christmas? We had a delightful time at our daughter's. We are headed to So Cal next week to shoot my niece's wedding and visit family.
May you also have a Happy New Year.
Love,
Kathy
Kathy,
We also had an enjoyable Christmas :)
Have fun on your trip to CA., and don't work too hard!
Love you my dear sister in Christ!
Marge
I'm still agreeing with you, in prayer, about God leading you in the right direction about the sale of your property, too.
Thanks Marge. We are leaning towards putting our property back on the market in the spring. We let the contract expire and are in a holding pattern at the moment.
testing
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