In Gen. 1:14, “…God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years…”
It is the second purpose stated, “for signs”, that I’d like to zero in on.
In Matthew 24:29, Joel 2:30,31, and Revelation 6:12,13 we see a radical change take place in what we would view as the regular and normal function of the sun, moon and stars. In the Mt. 24 account the sun is darkened, the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky. The Joel 2 account says that God will display wonders in the sky and on the earth. What will be seen? Blood, fire, and columns of smoke and the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood. In the Rev. 6 account, at the opening of the sixth seal, John sees the sun become black as sackcloth, the whole moon become like blood, and the stars fall from the sky.
Wow! What is about to occur when the natural function of these heavenly bodies
are so drastically altered? What do they signal when they are extinguished?
Joel
THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD!
Can we know when in relation to
Mt. 24:29 places the triple sign of the sun, moon, and stars after the abomination of desolation. From
What is involved in the Day of the Lord?
Going back to 2 Th. 2,
“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming (parousia/presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.”
If you go back to Matthew 24:29, the triple signs announcing the day of the Lord occur immediately after the tribulation.
Mt. 24:29: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,”
Mt. 24:30: “and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.”
Mt. 24:31: “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
CHRIST’S COMING AND OUR GATHERING INITIATES THE DAY OF THE LORD!
Mt. 24 is nothing other than a rapture passage. Verse 36 says “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
We can know the season of Christ’s return and our gathering, after the abomination of desolation, immediately after the tribulation. We have the triple sign of the sun, moon, and stars to signal when His presence and our gathering is imminent, but only the Father knows the exact day and hour.
What happens then after we are gathered? In Rev. 6:12,13 the triple signs occur at the opening of the sixth seal announcing the day of the Lord. Vv. 15-17 tells us that kings, great men, commanders, the rich, slaves and free men hide themselves among the rocks because they recognize the great day of the Lamb’s wrath has come.
Mt. 24:22 says the days of great tribulation are cut short for the sake of the elect. Christ gathers us via the angels. The remainder of
Isaiah 2:19: “And men will go into caves of the rocks, and into holes of the ground before the terror of the Lord, and before the splendor of His majesty, when He arises to make the earth tremble.”
Isaiah 13:9 “Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; and He will exterminate sinners from it.”
Luke 21:25-27also records the triple sign of the sun, moon, and stars:
“And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth dismay among the nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; (Christ is about to manifest His presence, gather the elect, and then pour out His wrath) for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."
“BUT WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO
A single star announced His first coming and led a small group of men to the Savior. At His return the sign will be all encompassing, the sun and moon will turn off, the stars will fall from the sky, His glory will radiate as lightening flashes from the east to the west, and every eye shall behold Him! (Mt. 24:27, Rev. 1:7)
(Rev. 6:12 tells us there's a really big earthquake too!)
28 comments:
Indeed. As the heavenly bodies functioned as a sign at his First Coming, so they will at his Second Coming.
It is interesting to note that when the Magi saw the star "they were overjoyed" (Mt 2:10). And that is the same response we are told to have when we see the Second Coming cosmic signs, "stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Thanks for dropping by Alan. I really enjoy visiting Prewrath Rapture Dot Com and was honored to see that you posted my testimony.
With my new understanding of Christ's return, I long for it even more. Joy fills my heart every time I think about it!
Katherine,
I brought this over here to rebut your post to Grumpy, as I didn't want to cause anymore outbursts from those who feel you should keep your arguments about pre-wrath confined to your own blog or others who inclined to believe in a pre-wrath rapture.
I know this will not persuade you but I hope it will help those who are still studying and haven't made up their mind.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasia (the departure) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
-2 Thessalonians 2:3
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.
I also believe that the Day of the Lord refers to the entire 7 year tribulation, aka Dahiels 70th week, aka The Wrath of the Lamb.
Keeping one's word should be important to a Christian.
Thought you might like to have your rebuttals and arguments moved to your own blog.
Isn't this unbelievable. No more diatribes, eh?
Katherine Hall said...
Hi Candy,
I noticed you made reference to Matt. 24:22. The days that are cut short for the sake of the elect in that verse are referring to the days of great tribulation. How will we know when we are in those days? From Christ's instruction in Mt. 24:15ff "...when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place...flee...for then there shall be great tribulation..."
Katherine Hall said...
Anne,
An understanding of the Day of the Lord passages along with the cosmic signs associated with the Day of the Lord helped me greatly in my understanding of eschatology. Also, it is important to distinguish between what is tribulation and what is God's wrath.
Blessings as you study.
Katherine Hall said...
Hi Everyone,
I promise, no more long diatribes. I do see all the seals as yet future. I think when the first seal is opened Antichrist will go out conquering and to conquer. I believe it might even occur before the covenant with the many is confirmed. I see seals two-five very possibly running concurrent with the activity of Antichrist. That's just my opinion of course. Just dropped in to say hi. Blessings to all. (I know one thing for sure, we all love the Lord and can't wait for His return! Hi Marge!)
Kathy
Katherine Hall said...
We are to be very watchful. As one who holds to the prewrath position, what I am looking for is the signing of the covenant. Than the abomination of desolation. After that the great tribulation which is cut short for the sake of the elect. When the triple sign in the sun, moon, and stars occur, that is when the prewrath position views Christ's return as imminent. No man knows the day or the hour. Only the Father. That day will not come like a thief for those who are watching for such things.
Katherine Hall said...
Grumpy,
As one who sees the first rider in Rev. 6:2 as the horn in Rev. 7:20-26, and the man of lawlessness in 2 Th. 2, I understand then that all the seals are yet future. But you probably already figured that out. :)
Katherine Hall said...
For anyone interested this is a link to a premillenial/prewrath commentary on Revelation. It takes Revelation at simple face value. Click here for link.
Elisha, I think it is a logical conclusion that Islam will play some sort of role in end time events.
Katherine Hall said...
I’ll try to make this as brief and concise as possible since I promised no more long diatribes. Grumpy, the prewrath position is based on a simple, face value hermeneutic. It places the rapture of the church at the Day of the Lord which occurs after the man of lawlessness is revealed (2 Th. 2:3) and after the great tribulation is cut short by the Day of the Lord return of Jesus. (Mt. 24:29,31). The seals are viewed as chronological because Revelation is viewed as chronological except in those instances where it obviously backs up and zeros in on details. (i.e. chs.12-14) Seals 3,4,and 5 however are viewed as running concurrent with the oppression of Antichrist. The first seal corresponds to the little horn in Dan. 7:24. The signing of the covenant (Dan. 9:27) is viewed as taking place shortly after the first seal and officially begins Daniel’s 70th week. The second seal corresponds with the revealing of the man of lawlessness when he breaks the covenant and removes the peace. This begins the great tribulation in Mt. 24. The sixth seal is the return of Jesus and the gathering of the saints. The sixth seal parallels Mt. 24:29-31 and Joel 2:30,31. The cosmic signs referred to in these passages also announce God’s wrath as about to come upon the world. God’s wrath is represented by the 7th seal from which comes the trumpets and then the bowls. There are links at my blog if you are interested in further info. Bible Fragrances is really good.
Kathy
Katherine Hall said...
Grumpy,
Your comments were received in a spirit of graciousness. I trust mine come across that way as well.
You quoted from another source: “Upon appearing in heaven Jesus immediately approached the right hand of God and took the seven-sealed scroll.”
It seems to be taking great liberty with Scripture to say this happened as soon as Christ appeared in heaven after His resurrection. Scripture never explicitly says this, anywhere, as far as I know.
Rev. 2,3 describes the spiritual condition of the churches as John penned Rev. Prewrath views them as the spiritual condition of the churches as Daniel’s 70th week unfolds too.
Rev. 5:7 is where we find direct reference to Christ coming and taking the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. Prewrath and traditional pretrib view this as still future and that this will occur right around the time Daniel’s 70th week begins. I have to stay with this timeline, when taking Scripture literally, and at simple, face value.
If you take 2 Th. 2:3 at simple, face value, the Day of the Lord will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…when he exalts himself as God in the temple. This means it occurs at some point after the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, not at the beginning. Isaiah 2:11 says that during the day of the Lord the Lord alone will be exalted. When the son of destruction exalts himself as God in the temple, the Lord alone is not exalted. The Day of the Lord must occur after that.
(A side note. In 2 Th. 2:3 Paul says the Day of the Lord will not come unless the “apostasy comes first”. John (Boatman), I know you view this as the departure of the church. Considering what Paul says to the Thessalonians in v. 15 however, context dictates, I believe, that this is referring to a departure from the faith. “So brethren, STAND FIRM and HOLD to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”)
(A second side note for Mac: Daniel’s 70th week is not cut short, but according to Mt. 24:22 the days of great tribulation are cut short. The oppression of Antichrist is against Israel and believers. Christ cuts it short for the sake of the elect by His return and our gathering. The remainder of Daniel’s 70th week is Christ pouring out His wrath on unbelievers. That’s the prewrath view anyhow.)
Rejoicing in the Lord and rich blessings to all,
Kathy
Katherine Hall said...
Grumpy,
I suspect we will continue holding to the rapture models we hold to now so I don't want to take up a whole lot of space. I do want to mention that since Mt. 24 places the sign of the sun, moon, and stars after the abomination of desolation, and Joel 2:31 states that those signs will occur before the Day of the Lord, this is why I view the Day of the Lord as occurring after the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. (This would line up with what Paul seems to be saying in 2 Th. 2.) Rev. 6 has the signs occurring at the opening of the 6th seal. This would then place the opening of the 6th seal after the midpoint, if you compare all three passages and understand these signs to be one and the same, which is the position I take.
Great post David.
Katherine Hall said...
Grumpy,
I'm not questioning that Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father just after His ascension. There are Scriptures that clearly bear that out as you cite. Scripture never explicitly says however that the Lamb took the scroll from the Father's hand right after He ascended. Rev. 5:7 says "And He came, and He took it out of the hand of Him who sat on the throne." I see this as occurring just prior to Daniel's 70th week. It's as if the Father is saying, "Ok, it's time to bring in Daniel's 70th week." There have been false Christ's, wars, famines and earthquakes, what Christ calls birth pangs in Mt. 24, since Christ's ascension. I see these intensifying as we approach and enter into Daniel's 70th week. When the first seal is opened it brings Antichrist onto the scene. (The signing of the covenant is what actually begins the Week.) When the second seal is broken Antichrist breaks his covenant and takes away the peace. When the third seal is broken Antichrist's economic system is in full swing and it is becoming harder and harder for those who refuse to take the mark to eat. War has also brought famine conditions. At the opening of the fourth seal death begins to take its toll. At the opening of the fifth seal we see that many believers have been killed because of the oppression of the beast. And then, the triple sign in the sun, moon, and stars occurs signaling the great and awesome day of the Lord!
I will be the first to admit that I can't say for sure that the first five seals will play out this way.
Our discussion has inspired a new post at my blog. It picks up at the sixth seal. That part of the story however I'm fairly certain can be soundly supported by Scripture.
Katherine Hall said...
Grumpy,
You might find this article by Ron Wallace fascinating.
Katherine Hall said...
Harold, I think the easiest thing for me to do is to refer you to this website rather than to try to explain my viewpoint. I just gave Grumpy one of the links as well. I will add that Matt. 24:21 says the great tribulation is unprecedented. A great number of believers are going to be martyred in a short period of time and Christ says in verse 22 "unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short." It is going to be a horrendous time. I believe those that are killed during this time are the ones we see under the altar when the 5th seal is opened. They ask God when is He going to avenge their blood. It is at the opening of the sixth seal when He starts to bring His vengence. 1 Th. 5:1-3/And the sudden destruction comes upon the unbelievers, the beast worshipers, those who are enjoying peace under Antichrist. v.4 "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day (of the Lord) should overtake you like a thief.
That's the name of my blog, by the way. =)
Katherine Hall said...
Grumpy,
It's the 2 Th. 2 passage that stands out for me as far as where to place the day of the Lord in relation to Daniel's 70th Week. Paul says, "It" (and he's clearly talking about the day of the Lord) will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction...who exalts himself...he takes his seat in the temple." I don't see how we can take it any other way than the day of the Lord occurs sometime after the abomination of desolation. From Daniel 9:27 we know the A of D occurs at the midpoint.
Gen. 1:14 really caught my attention too as far as the sun, moon, and stars being for signs. We know it was one star that announced Christ's birth. The whole sky full of stars that fall from their place announce His second coming. It is truly going to be an amazing sight indeed!
You know how the Gospels give different aspects of the same account. I think it is that way with the prophetic passages as well. It's exciting to dig into God's Word, isn't it?!
Feel free to comment at my blog too Grumpy, and anyone else is welcome.
Anonymous at 4:43,
In 2 Th. 2:3,4 the son of destruction is said to exalt himself above every so-called god...so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. We know from Rev. 13:15 that the image of the beast will speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. People are going to be faced with a choice, worship the beast and live, refuse to worship the beast and die. Paul in 2 Th. 2:15 urges the brethren to stand firm. The apostasy mentioned in v.3 is tied to when the man of lawlessness, (the beast) is revealed. The context dictates that this is a departure from the faith. Matt. 24:22 identifies this time after the abomination of desolation as the great tribulation. The Greek word is "thlipsis" which means pressure, persecution, or tribulation. Jn. 16:33 says that in this world we will have "thlipsis". The wrath of the Lamb is not mentioned until after the opening of the sixth seal, when the triple sign of the sun, moon, and stars occurs, announcing the day of the Lord. In Mt. 24, the triple sign of the sun, moon, and stars falls after the abomination of desolation, and after the tribulation. That is why the prewrath position places the day of the Lord, the wrath of the Lamb, at this point.
Grace and peace,
Kathy
Anonymous 5:20pm,
The burden of my heart is that my brothers and sisters in Christ will be prepared.
I wish you the Lord's grace and peace too.
Kathy
(For others who see all those comments I posted, they cover probably a week. I posted no more than two or three at the most a day.)
Robert Gromacki
Where is "the Church"
in Revelation 4-19?
OVERVIEW
Where is the church during the seven-year Tribulation, as outlined in Revelation 4-19? If posttribulationism were correct, you would expect to see the church mentioned as being on earth during this time. However, that is not the picture one sees in Revelation 4-19. This writer demon-strates through investigating many of the details of Revelation 4-19 that the church is pictured in heaven with Christ, having been raptured before the Tribulation began. You can become informed of the overwhelming support for the pretribulational understanding of this issue through this essay.
The Roman emperor Domitian banished the apostle John to the island of Patmos in the Aegean Sea (Rev. 1:9). It was there that John heard the command of Jesus Christ: "What you see, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia" (Rev. 1:11 NKJV). John recorded what he saw and heard, and then he sent the volume to seven local churches located in key cities within the Roman province of Asia; namely Ephesus, Smyrna, Perganios, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea (Rev. 1:11).
The content of the book of Revelation can be divided into three sections, based upon Christ's command: "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this" (Rev. 1:19 NKJV). These three sections reveal a time sequence: past, present, and future.
What had John just seen? He had just seen a symbolic vision of Jesus Christ standing in the midst of seven lampstands that represented the seven local churches (Rev. 1:12-18,20). This content forms the past section of the book ("the things which you have seen"). The present section ("the things which are") can be seen in the seven individual letters to the churches (Rev. 2-3). The future section thus forms the major part of the book (Rev. 4-22). The prepositional phrase "after this" (meta tauta) literally means "after these things." It is found three times (1:19; 4:1 [twice]). The third section begins with these words: "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this" (4:1 NKJv).
The future section (Rev. 4-22) contains an introduction, revealing the throne of God the Father in heaven and the taking of the seven-sealed scroll by Jesus Christ (4-5). The seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments are then described (5-16). The judgment of Babylon is then set forth (17-18). The second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth is finally presented (19:11-21). The millennial kingdom, the great white throne judgment, and the eternal state close out the prophetic revelation (20-22).
The typical futurist interpretation of the book contends that chapters 4-19 describe what will take place in the seven years preceding the second coming of Christ to the earth (19:11-21). Consistent advocates of premillennialism hold this position regardless of their particular view on the rapture of the church.
However, only those who embrace the pretribulational rapture (or the pre-seventieth-week-of-Daniel rapture) will argue for the absence of the genuine church on the earth during these entire seven years. What evidence can be found within Revelation 4-19 to show that the true church is in heaven when the events of these chapters are taking place? The following looks at nine indications.
The Mention of the Church
The words "church" or "churches," so prominent in chapters 1-3, do not appear again in the book until the last chapter (22:16). The singular "church" and the plural "churches" together occur 19 times in the first three chapters (1:4,11,20 [twice]; 2:1,7,8,11, 12,17,18,12,19; 3:1,6,7,13,14,22).
The term "church" (ekklesia) literally means "a called out group." It has two main usages in the New Testament. It can be used of the body of Christ, which He is building in this age (Matt. 16:18; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:22-23; 4:1-6). It is composed of believing Jews and believing Gentiles made one in Christ (Eph. 2:15-16). The term can also be used of a local congregation of believers (Acts 14:27; Gal. 1:2). It is so used in this second sense in the book of Revelation.
However, there is a strange silence of the term in chapters 4-19. That fact is especially noteworthy when you contrast that absence with its frequent presence in the first three chapters. One good reason for this phenomenon is the absence of the true church and true evangelical churches in the seven years preceding the second coming. The true believers of the church have gone into the presence of Jesus Christ in heaven before the onset of the events of the seven-year period. The church is not mentioned during the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments because the church is not here during the outpouring of these judgments.
The Admonition
The recurring phrase "unto the churches" (2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22) is conspicuously absent in a similar admonition (13:9). All seven letters to the churches end with this admonition by Christ: "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (NKJv). Each individual person in each individual local church was to hear and to apply the truth that Christ gave to all of the local churches. For example, a believer in the church at Ephesus could profit spiritually from what the Savior said to the churches at Pergamos or at Philadelphia.
Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are the three main enemies of God and His people during the seven-year period (13:1-18; 19:20-20:3). The beast, symbolic of the military-political dictator of the end times, will rule for 42 months, the second half of the seven-year period. John recorded this truth about him: "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (13:8).
At this point, John records the warning: "if anyone has an ear, let him hear" (13:9). Period! There is no mention of "saying to the churches," a phrase which is repeated seven times in the seven letters. If the previously mentioned churches (Rev. 1-3) could possibly be in the seven-year period to face the wrath of the beast, then why wasn't the admonition addressed to them? The obvious answer is that they won't be on earth at that time.
There is the mention of "saints" in the context (13:7,10). These saints, however, are those who get saved during the seven years after the true church has been taken into heaven.
The Wife of the Lamb
The church, as a body-unit, is not seen after chapters 1-3 until the marriage of the Lamb is discussed (19:7-9). Here is the description:
Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints (19:7-8).
The church is called Christ's "wife" (gune). Paul used the metaphor of husband and wife to describe the relationship of Jesus Christ to the church (Eph. 5:22-33). The wife is seen as a complete, definite unit in heaven even before the actual second coming of Christ to the earth (19:7; cf. 19:11-16). There is no sense that part of the wife is in heaven and another part is on earth.
The wife has also been rewarded prior to the second coming of Christ to the earth. Her accountability can be seen in the fact that she "has made herself ready" (19:7). However, no believer deserves any reward for what he has done for the Lord. The divine conferral of reward is still an expression of His redemptive grace, thus the text reads: "And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen" (19:8). The linen is defined as "the righteous acts of the saints" (19:8 NKJV). The phrase "righteous acts" is the translation of a plural noun (ta dikaišmata). It seems to refer to the righteous deeds done by genuine believers rather than to the imputed positional righteousness of Christ (Rom. 3:22; 4:22-5:1).
Thus, the judgment seat of Christ has already taken place in heaven before He returns to the earth. All believers in this church age know that they will have to give an account for what they have done since they have been saved (1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10).
Since the wife has been rewarded prior to the return of Christ to the earth, then the wife had to be raptured into heaven before that event.
Christ's Activity
The focus of Christ's activity changes from chapters 1-3 to chapters 4-19. In the first three chapters, His ministry was in the midst of the seven churches on earth. He is commending, criticizing, and correcting them. In chapters 4-19, however, His activity occurs in heaven. He is occupied with the seven-sealed scroll and the judgments that proceed from it.
As the living Head of the church, His body, He is presently building His church (Matt. 16:18). He is in us and we are in Him His attention is on the church. However, that emphasis disappears in chapters 4-19. In the seven years prior to His return to the earth, He is preparing the world and Israel for His coming. The church is now completely with Him in heaven by way of resurrection, translation, and rapture. That phase of His creative and redemptive purpose has been finalized.
24 Elders
If the 24 elders represent the church, then the church is already in heaven before the opening of the seal judgments. The elders have a prominent part in chapters 4-19. They are mentioned 12 times (4:4,10; 5:5,6,8,11,14; 7:11,13; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4). They are first mentioned as present in heaven around the throne of God the Father "Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads" (4:4 NKJV).
Who are these elders? Do they represent angels or men? If human, do they symbolize Old Testament believers, New Testament believers, or both?
The numerical adjective "twenty-four" is significant. King David divided the Levitical priesthood into 24 orders (1 Chron. 24). Each order performed priestly functions at the tabernacle and at the temple for eight days, from Sabbath to Sabbath. In the distribution of the work load, each order would function two weeks per year. In so doing, each order represented the entire priestly tribe and the nation of Israel before God. Thus, the number "twenty-four" came to be representative of a larger, complete group. Thus, the "twenty-four elders" is a phrase which denotes more than two dozen specific persons; rather, the elders stand in for an entire group of personal beings, either angels or humans.
Three features about their description are striking. First, they are "sitting" on thrones. They are not standing, flying, or hovering. Have angels ever sat in the presence of God? No Scripture verse says that they have ever done so. However, Jesus promised every believer in the church age: "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also over came and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Rev. 3:21 NKJv). God positionally has made every believer to "sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6). The "sitting" feature of the elders better suits men than angels.
Second, the elders were "clothed in white robes" (himatiois leukois). These words were previously used of believers within the churches (3:5,18).
Third, the elders had "crowns" (stephanous) on their heads. These are crowns gained by achievement and victory. Again, believers in the churches were promised crowns (2:10; 3:11; same word). In the epistles, believers in this church age are promised crowns for specific accomplishments: the incorruptible crown for living a spiritually disciplined life (1 Cor. 9:25); the crown of rejoic-ing for impacting lives to receive Jesus Christ as Savior (1 Thess. 2:19); the crown of righteousness for loving the appearing of Christ (2 Tim. 4:8); the crown of life for loving Christ in the endurance of trials (James 1:12; cf. Rev. 2:10: the crown of life given to the believer-overcomer at Smyrna for being faithful unto death); and the crown of glory for faithful pastors (1 Peter 5:4). Holy angels do not wear crowns, but believers can and will wear them.
The triple description of the 24 elders as sitting, clothed, and crowned speaks for an identity of redeemed people, notably the believers of this church age.
A text-translation problem within the context of the praise of the elders must be addressed (5:8-10). The elders sang a new song, saying:
You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth (5:9-10
In this song of redemption, notice the first person plural personal pronouns ("us" and "we"). Both the King James version and the New King James version, based upon the received Greek text (Textus Receptus), indicate that the elders are praising God for their own salvation.
On the other hand, the New International version, based upon the critical Greek text, has this translation:
You purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God and they will reign on the earth.
Notice the usage of the third person plural personal pronouns ("them" and "they"). The New American Standard Bible also has the third person pronoun. The Majority Greek Text has the third-person pronouns, and that fact is noted in the margin of the New King James version. With the usage of the third-person pronouns, the elders seem to be praising God for the salvation of another group. Those who believe that the elders are angels are quick to point out that interpretation.
However, can people speak about themselves in the third-person rather than in the first person? The song of Moses and of the children of Israel, expressed after their deliverance from Egyptian bondage and their passage through the Red Sea, contains these words: "You in Your mercy have led forth the people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength to Your holy habitation" (Exod. 15:13 NKJV). The Israelites are definitely singing about themselves, and yet they sing in the third person. Thus, if the third-person text translation (in Rev. 5:8-10) is accepted as the preferred, original text translation, that fact alone does not preclude the possibility that the elders are singing about their own salvation.
Again, if the third-person text translation is viewed as the original, then the fact that other Greek texts before 1611 (the year that the King James version was published) contained the first person is very significant. It shows that people before 1611 held to the view that the elders were redeemed people. Critics of the pretribulational rapture position, consequently, cannot argue that the proponents of the pretribulational rapture have superimposed their dispensational bias upon the passage.
Angels are set in contrast to the elders: "Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders" (Rev. 5:11 NKJV). They sang praise to Christ without any reference to their redemption or to the salvation of others: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing" (5:12 NKJv). If the elders are angels, then the song would appear to be redundant. The second song and the contrast between the elders and the angels suggest that the elders are humans.
The term "elder" (presbuteros) is never used of angels in the Bible. The word itself denotes maturity and growth. It is contrasted with "younger" (1 Tim. 5:1-2). How could angels be designated as elders when all of the holy angels were created at the same time. In other words, they are of the same age. In contrast, the elders of a local church were to be men of spiritual experience (1 Tim. 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9). When Paul called "for the elders of the church" at Ephesus to meet him at Miletus, they came as the official leaders and as the representatives of all the believers in Ephesus.
The more plausible explanation of the 24 elders is that they represent a group of redeemed people. Who are these people? Since the believers within the Old Testament period will not be resurrected until the return of Jesus Christ to the earth (Dan. 12:1-3; Rev. 20:4-6), the elders more likely represent the redeemed of the church.
The Heaven-Dwellers
The beast, that great military-political leader of the end time, will open his mouth "in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven" (Rev. 13:6 NKJV). Who are these heaven-dwellers? They are contrasted with earth-dwellers (12:12; 13:8,14). The earth-dwellers are both human and unsaved. Thus, the heaven-dwellers seem to be human and saved. The verb "dwell" (sknšuntas) is the same word used for Jesus Christ's incarnation: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14 NKJV). A similar word (skenšs) is used to describe the believer's present body as a "tent" (2 Cor. 5:1,4). The verb ("to dwell") or the noun ("tent") is never used of angelic activities or bodies.
In the critical Greek text, the phrase "those who dwell in heaven" is in apposition to "His tabernacle" (the connective "and" is omitted). This equation suggests that the heaven-dwellers, as God's tabernacle, is a specific group with none to be added. If that is so, then their description better fits the raptured church, since more people will be saved in the second half of the seven-year period.
John's Experience
John's experience should not be equated with the rapture of the church. John wrote: "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this" (4:11 NKJV). Some claim that this event clearly indicates the fulfillment of the main rapture prediction (1 Thess. 4:13-18; Old Scofield Bible, p. 1334). Others see the experience of the apostle as a symbolic representation of the translation of the church (New Scofleld Bible, p. 1356).
There are some similarities: the voice and the trumpet (4:1; cf. 1 Thess. 4:16). However, the differences in the two accounts are much greater. At the rapture, the believers will hear the voice of an archangel, whereas John directly heard the voice of Christ (4:1; cf. 1:10). There is no mention of Christ's descent from heaven when John went into heaven. There is no mention of a meeting in the air at a point between heaven and earth. There was no permanent change in the body of John. The experience of John parallels those of Paul (2 Cor. 12:1-7) and of Philip (Acts 8:39).
The Lampstands and the Lamps
The individual lampstands, which represented the seven churches (Rev. 1:12,20), should not be equated with "the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne" (Rev. 4:5). Hal Lindsey claimed that the movement of the lamps from earth to heaven was evidence for the removal of the church from earth into heaven before the outpouring of divine judgment (There's a New World Coming, p. 86).
However, there is a difference in the Greek words translated as "lampstands" (luchnid 1:12,20) and "lamps" (lampades; 4:5). Thus, they cannot be seeli as equal symbols for the church. If they could, then why did John use a different word? In addition, the "lamps" are defined as "the seven spirits of God" (4:5).
The so-called equation of the lampstands with the lamps should not be used as a proof for a pretribulational rapture.
Israel's Prominence
Israel and God's covenant program with Israel are the central focus of the seven years prior to the return of Jesus Christ. That emphasis accounts for the silence of any reference to the church on earth at the same time.
When John went into heaven, he first saw the throne of God the Father (4:2). He then gave this symbolic description of God: "And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald" (4:3 KJ's').
Why did God reveal Himself in this way? There is a clue in the two precious stones. The jasper (iaspidi) and the sardius (sardiš) are the same two words used in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, in the description of the breastplate of the high priest of Israel (Exod. 28:17-21). The breastplate contained 12 stones, one for each of the 12 tribes of Israel. They were set in four rows with three stones in each row. The sardius was the first stone in the first row; thus it represented Reuben, the oldest of Jacob's sons. The jasper was the last stone in the last row; thus it represented Benjamin, the youngest of the 12 sons.
These two stones, in the description of God, may represent the relationship of God to His chosen people, the nation of Israel. The appearance of the rainbow further substantiates His covenant relationship and the integrity of His pledged word. Thus, these key chapters (4-19) open with God and His relationship to the people of Israel on earth.
The intercalation of the church age is over. God will now complete His program with Israel through the fulfillment of the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27). The focus has shifted from the church (Rev. 1-3) to Israel (Rev. 4-19).
When Jesus Christ took the seven-sealed scroll, He was described as "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David" (5:5). This description is based upon two Old Testament passages that relate the promised Messiah to Israel.
In the first passage, Jacob informed his 12 sons about what would happen to them "in the last days" (Gen. 49:1). Concerning Judah, he said:
Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise; Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; Your father's children shall bow down before you. Judah is a lion's whelp; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He bows down, he lies down as a lion; and as a lion, who shall rouse him? The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him shall be the obedience of the people (Gen. 49:8-10 NKJV).
In the second passage, God gave this promise concerning Israel, the future kingdom, and the Messiah:
There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him. The spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shail seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious (Isa' 22:1-2,10 NKJV).
The seven-sealed scroll symbolizes the right to rule as earth's king. The contents of those seven seals will then occur during the seven-year period prior to Jesus' return to the earth (described in Rev. 4-19). Jesus Christ's right to that scroll is viewed from His relationship to Israel rather than from His relationship to the church. He is the head of His body, the church (Eph. 1:22-23), but that description is not given here.
A prominent group in the seventieth week of Daniel is the 144,000, the sealed servants of God (7:3-4; 14:1-5). They are "of all the tribes of the children of Israel" (7:4), namely: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph [Ephraim}, and Benjamin (7:5-8). This passage shows the presence of Israel as a national, ethnic entity on the earth and its tribal divisions in that day.
Mounce, who holds to a posttribulational rapture, claims that ten of the tribes disappeared at the Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom of Israel (722 B.c.) and that the other two lost their identity when Rome destroyed Jerusalem (A.D. 70). He denies the literalness of the number and the names (The Book of Revelation, p. 168). However, Anna is identified as a member of the tribe of Asher during the infancy of Jesus (Luke 2:36). Also, if Judah is not literal in 7:5, is it literal in 5:5? A better explanation is that God is using Israel, rather than the church, to serve Him on earth during the seven years prior to Christ's return to the earth.
The second half of the seven-year period will begin with the forced exit of Satan from heaven to earth and his subsequent persecution of a "woman" (Rev. 23:1-17). Who is this woman? She has been seen as Mary, the mother of Jesus, the New Testament church, and as Israel.
John saw this description of her: "Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars" (12:1 NxJv). The mention of the sun, moon, and 12 stars should take us back to the dream of Joseph: "Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, 'Look, I ha dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me" (Gen. 37:9 NKJv). Jacob understood the meaning and said: "Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" (Gen. 37:10 NxJv). In the interpretation, Jacob is the sun, Leah (or perhaps Rachel) is the moon, and the 12 sons of Jacob are the 12 stars.
The woman was present at the birth of Christ (12:5) and will also be present on earth during the 1260 days prior to Christ's return to the earth (12:6,13-17). In using the "law of previous reference" as a principle of interpretation, only the nation of Israel would qualify as the meaning of the woman. This position finds support in the Old Testament passage (Gen. 37:9-10), in the actual historical situation at the time of Christ's birth, and in the promise of a restored, regenerated nation of Israel.
Where is the church in Revelation 4-19? An investigation into those chapters will show that the church will be in heaven with Jesus Christ. When will she go there? She will be raptured there before the events of Revelation 4-19 occur.
anonymous,
Concerning the term "departure", to suggest that it means a departure from the earth is an erroneous imposition of scripture based on faulty exegesis. If you examine the various Bible translations, you will discover that there is an overwhelming consensus for the term meaning apostasy, rebellion, falling away, and yes, even departure. But, the departure is from the faith, not from the earth. 1 Timothy 4:1 proves this. It says, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will DEPART from the FAITH, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons" Also, if we examine 2 Thessalonians 2 we note the following:
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him[THE RAPTURE], we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[THE RAPTURE] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day[THE RAPTURE] will not come unless the falling away[REBELLION] comes first, and the man of sin[THE ANTI-CHRIST] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Clearly, the main topic here is the rapture event and then Paul identifies two things that will precede the rapture. Now, consider this, if you interchange your interpretation of departure as meaning from the earth or as the rapture event, then the 3rd verse would read as follows.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [THE RAPTURE] will not come unless the [RAPTURE] comes first, and [THE ANTI-CHRIST] is revealed, the son of perdition
Do you see how nonsensical and redundant that sounds? Now, insert our premise concerning the term departure meaning apostasy or rebellion.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [THE RAPTURE] will not come unless the [APOSTASY OR REBELLION] comes first, and [THE ANTI-CHRIST] is revealed, the son of perdition
You must concede that that is what is meant here.
anonymous,
[Concerning Robert Gromacki's essay "Where is 'the Church'"] The absence of the term "Church" or "churches" throughout a greater part of Revelation, is a classic Pre-Trib argument, which can easily be refuted and blown out of the water. First of all, it is an example of circular reasoning and "ABSENT"-mindedness(sorry, I couldn't resist using that term here). But seriously, the only thing that is missing is proper exegesis. Allow me to explain. The term "Church" or "churches" is actually not used until Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the "churches" I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." But, this presents a problem for Pre-Tribulationalism. Why? Because this places this term AFTER the millenium mentioned prior in Revelation 20. So, does this then mean that the Church is also "absent" during the millenial reign of Christ on earth? Huh? That's nonsense and unscriptural. You see, that line of reasoning doesn't work. Now, the Pre-Tribber will try and counter all this by referring to Revelation 19, where it mentions, a "GREAT MULTITUDE", which is clearly identified as His bride(the Church) prepared or made ready for the event we know as the marriage supper of the Lamb. Indeed, the Church is clearly in view there, but this same "GREAT MULTITUDE" is also seen back in Revelation 7. So, let's be CONSISTENT AND FAIR here. Without a doubt, the "GREAT MULTITUDE"(THE CHURCH) is undeniably mentioned in both Revelation 7 and in chapter 19. Come on folks, if this guy from a dusty West Texas town can figure this out, I'm sure you folks can. I'm telling you right now, the Pre-Wrath Rapture Position, is the most Biblically sound. But don't take my word for it, take His Word.
A few points of comment:
(1) The Greek term for "church" does not mean "called out ones." That is a common error I often hear. That is called the "root fallacy," which is determining the meaning of the word by the combination of it's roots or parts. Meaning is determined by usage alone. The Greek term for "church" means "assembly, gathering, congregation."
(2) Another semantic error called the "concordance fallacy" is used when pretribs argue that the church must not be present during the events in Revelation 4-19 because the word "church" is not used has been thoroughly discredited here. (I have yet to receive a single response from a pretrib from any of the points I have made in that article.)
(3) A pretrib commentator in this thread argued that the 24 elders represent the church and that the KJV rendering is superior over non-KJV translational renderings. Again, on this respective point I have demonstrated that not only the textual evidence would argue that the KJV rendering has untenable support and therefore inferior, but the supposition that the elders represent the church is only that--a supposition lacking no exegetical or theological evidence.
Thank you,
Alan Kurschner
Alan,
I just read your article. Excellent!
I was wondering, do you know if there are plans for a Prewrath Conference ever to be held on the West Coast?
Katherine,
Glad that you liked the article. As far as a conference on the West Coast, there are no immediate plans for Coop and myself to go out there. But we would be amenable to something in due time, I am sure. Maybe there are other prewrath teachers out there that would be able to do it sooner.
Thanks,
Alan
Katherine,
I’m so sorry that you’ve come under this cowardly attack at Joel’s blog. Differences in eschatology should not result in this sort of behaviour and I feel the anonymous poster probably feels threatened. If anything, your comments should encourage people to study further to try the scriptures – as they have for me. Sadly, because Joel’s blog is not moderated, you get all kinds of strife from time to time. You come across as a gentle and loving Christian and you will smile at the Bema seat of judgment.
Maranatha,
YBIC
mac
You are a kind brother in Christ Mac. Thank you.
Rejoice in the Lord always!
Kathy
Katherine,
Your sweet spirit shows that you belong to Christ.
I am sorry that Joel's blog has so many unkind people on it.
I do not agree with your interpretation of the scriptures, but I believe you have the right to them.
You should go to Joel's every day though, to at least say hello, as it makes it easier for people who want to click on your name to get here.
In His love,
A Sister
Thank you my dear sister in Christ.
Kathy,
Yes! I agree with the last Sister's remark! You have been more than gracious stating your End Time views, and there is no reason you should have to go thru Anonymous's attack against you!
I was so sorry to see that Anonymous had 'let loose,' again :(
Love you, and keep on posting, okay?
Thank you Marge.
Much love from Kathy
Katherine,
I know the article below is a bit lenthy, but I can't do it justice by shortening it. I hope you will take a few minutes and read it, and hopefully allow others who are still seeking answers to read it also
In His love,
Reasons for a Pretribulation Rapture
By Tim LaHaye, D.Min., Litt.D.
President, Tim LaHaye Ministries/Founder, Pre-Trib Research Center, El Cajon, California
Among the many who believe the return of Christ will take place before the Millennium, there are at least five groups who teach differing views of the timing of the Rapture. The prevailing view is the pretribulational Rapture. In short, this belief indicates Christ will rapture His Church to His Father’s house prior to the seven-year Tribulation.
There are, however, many fine Christians who long for the Savior’s return, but see it differently. Some of these people are called Midtribulationalists; some Posttribulationalists; some believe in a partial rapture in that Christ will return in several stages; and some believe in the most recent view, the pre-wrath rapture which places all of the apocalyptic wrath in the last quarter of the Tribulation and places Christ’s return just before the judgment begins. I believe the following:
The timing of the Rapture is not a cardinal doctrine over which Christians should argue and become divisive
There are more than adequate reasons for believing when all Second Coming texts are considered, there is more reason for believing the Rapture will be pretribulational. Here are some of those reasons:
Both Jesus and the apostle Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, promised believers they would be saved from the “wrath to come,” Matthew 3.7; Luke 3.7; 1 Thessalonians 1.10; and kept from the “the hour of trial that shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth,” Revelation 3.10. Such a trial has not yet occurred and we have Jesus’ unconditional promise to keep believers out of that trial, Revelation 3.10. Paul gave that same promise in Romans 5.9; 1 Thessalonians 1.10 and 5.9. The Hebrew prophets referred to that future time of wrath or trouble for Israel more than 50 times and although Israel has suffered much throughout its tragic history, those prophecies will not be fulfilled until the Tribulation. All the other interpretations have at least a portion of the Church experiencing all or some of the Tribulation period, which we believe, contradicts the above Scriptures.
The pretribulational view is the most logical view of Second Coming Scriptures when taken for their plain, literal meaning whenever possible. Many of the details of the Second Coming must be pieced together from various passages of Scripture, no matter what view you take. The pretribulational position finds a logical place for every Second Coming passage. Like a completed puzzle, all the pieces fit.
The pretribulational position clearly and logically untangles the contrasting details of Christ’s Second Coming. The Scriptures say Jesus will come in the air secretly to rapture His Church, yet He will also come to the earth publicly. According to the pretribulational view, the coming of Christ in blessing for His Church and His return to earth in judgment are two distinct events separated by time. The book of Revelation and 2 Thessalonians 2 clarify what takes place between those two events.
The pretribulational-rapture position is the only view which makes a clear distinction between Israel and the Church. The lack of a proper understanding of the relationship between Israel and the Church in Bible prophecy is one of the major causes of confusion as illustrated in the teachings of amillennialism and posttribulationalism. Pretribulationalism is the only position which clearly outlines the program of the Church; see the article “Israel and the Church” by Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
Pretribulationalism is the only view which makes “that blessed hope,” Titus 2.13, truly a blessed hope. Few Bible doctrines have brought more hope to grieving souls during the past two thousand years than the doctrine of this “blessed hope,” the teaching Christ will return for His Church, resurrect the dead and transport living believers to be with Himself while the world endures the Tribulation. The midtribulational position destroys that hope by forcing the Christian to anticipate the trauma of at least part of the Tribulation. Posttribulationalism further destroys such optimism in that it propels us through the entire Tribulation period. No proper reading of Bible prophecy gives credence to the idea the Church will be on earth during that seven-year period. The judgment pictured in Revelation is clearly intended for Israel and the Gentile world. Keep in mind the teaching on the Rapture was given to comfort those who mourn. The threat of experiencing the Tribulation is hardly a doctrine of comfort to the saints.
Pretribulationalism allows sufficient time for important end-time events to occur; it allows adequate time for Christians to be taken to the Father’s house, experience the judgment seat of Christ: “every one of us shall give account of himself to God,” Romans 14.12; yet the view still provides time for the Marriage Supper events in Heaven before He comes “with power and great glory” to the earth: Matthew 24.30 and Luke 21.27. Other viewpoints offer various periods of time for these events to take place, but all are too brief to allow adequate time for important events listed in Revelation.
Only the pretribulational view preserves the motivating power of the imminent return of Christ, which was such a challenge to the early Church. In John 14.1-3; Acts 1.11; 1 Corinthians 15.51,52; Philippians 3.20, Colossians 3.4 and many other passages, the apostles taught Christ could come at any moment. When the Church loses this form of anticipation, it tends to become carnal and spiritually dead.
Pretribulational Christians are looking for the coming of the Lord. Other views have Christians awaiting the Tribulation, antiChrist and great suffering. In fact, only the Rapture could occur as soon as today, the Glorious Appearing cannot occur for at least seven or more years.
Pretribulationalism emphasizes the magnitude of the Rapture. Since at least four passages of Scripture describe the Rapture, it must be a significant event. The posttribulational view trivializes the Rapture, treating it as an express-elevator trip: zip up and right back down! The pretribulational view treats it as a dignified, blessed event commensurate with a heavenly Bridegroom Who comes to take His Bride to His Father’s house for their wedding.
Pretribulationalism most clearly fits the flow of the Book of Revelation. Revelation 4.1,2 by itself never could unlock the mystery of the Rapture, but since that event is revealed in other passages: 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18; 1 Corinthians 15.50-58 and John 14.1-3, one may appropriately identify John’s call up to Heaven as a rapture event which unfolds before the Tribulation period.
The pretribulational view explains why the Church is not mentioned from Revelation 4.3 – 18.24. There must be a reason why the Church is so central in the first three chapters of Revelation, but disappears until the Glorious Appearing. Pretribulationalists insist the Church has already been raptured before the events of this Revelation passage. Midtribulationalists and posttribulationalists would ask us to find the Church in the Tribulation even though it is not mentioned in Revelation 4 – 18.
Pretribulationalism preserves the credibility of Christ’s Word that Christians will be kept from the Tribulation. The pretribulational view is the only one which resolves the contrasting difficulties of Revelation 3.10 and 7.14. If Church members will be among the martyrs of 7.14 killed during the Tribulation, the Lord will not have kept His Word in 3.10. Pretribulationalists explain there will be no person from the Church on the earth during the Tribulation. The Church will be raptured before it begins, fulfilling the Lord’s promise.
Pretribulationalism explains why there is no Bible instruction on preparation for the Tribulation. Doesn’t it seem strange although the Bible advises Christians how to face ordinary everyday troubles, it submits absolutely no instructions related to the worst time the world will ever face, a period filled with frightening events which have never come close to being fulfilled? Pretribulationalists have a simple answer: The Church will not be here!
The apostle Paul presented the Rapture as a treasured truth to bring comfort to believers. Just as Paul intended it to in 1 Thessalonians 4.18, the pretribulational rapture doctrine has comforted millions of Christians in their hours of grief.
From Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible - King James Version
Published by AMG Publishers, 2000. Used with permission.
Hello from Kathy,
I will not delete your post. What I would like to do is go through the article with you. Not all in this comment. Let's start with the first paragraph for right now. We can work our way through it over the next several days. Let's compare what Tim LaHaye says to what Scripture says.
Tim LaHaye says: "The prevailing view is the pretribulational Rapture."
I think everyone who studies eschatology would agree with that statement.
TL: "In short, this belief indicates Christ will rapture His Church to His Father’s house prior to the seven-year Tribulation."
We know the 70th week of Daniel is 7 years long. It is not called the tribulation however until after the abmonination of desolation. The Greek word used in Mt. 24:21 is "thlipsis" which can be translated pressure, persecution, or tribulation. Jesus says in Jn. 16:33 that in the world we shall have "thlipsis". Mt. 24:22 says that those days (of tribulation) are cut short. Why? For the sake of the elect. The elect are suffering "thlipsis". God has told us that we are not destined for His wrath. It is the elect who are suffering. We must differentiate between tribulation (the suffering of the elect) and God's wrath. If those days are cut short, what happens for the remainder of Daniel's 70th week? God's wrath falls on the unbelievers. Let's go to 2 Th. 1:6-8: "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God..." The great tribulation is cut short by Jesus return to gather the elect. Mt. 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." What remains for the remainder of Daniel's 70th week? The wrath of God against unbelievers. He first gives relief and then pours out His retribution.
I'll stop there for now.
In Grace,
Kathy
Good morning,
TL says: the "pre-wrath rapture which places all of the apocalyptic wrath in the last quarter of the Tribulation and places Christ’s return just before the judgment begins."
It's because prewrath views the great tribulation in Mt. 24 as Satan's wrath via the oppression of Antichrist. The elect are enduring "thlipsis". This is a time of persecution against Israel and then God's elect by Satan. Rev. 12:12 calls it Satan's wrath. In the Rev. 12 account, prior to calling it Satan's wrath Satan is kicked out of heaven to the earth by Michael and his angels. The 5th seal martyrs ask God how much longer until He avenges their blood. They view God's wrath as yet to come. They are not confused as to who's actions caused their deaths. God tells them to wait a little while longer. At the opening of the 6th seal we see the first mention of God's wrath by the earth dwellers. God is now going to deal out His retribution. He is going to afflict those who were afflicting His own.
In Grace,
Kathy
Kathy,
Great responses. If I could add my 2 "pesos" worth. About the Pre-Trib. View being the prevailing view, I would just interject that it certainly is the most appealing to the flesh. It's the easy way out. In other words, ESCAPISM based on fanciful and wishful thinking(how convenient). It is no wonder that a large segment of the Western Church is so superficial and lukewarm with itching ears for sermons about prosperity and the easy life and easy exit(so,so sad). About your second response, indeed, the Day of the Lord's Wrath will be PAY BACK TIME!!!
Yes Raul,
So many folks are holding on to what I believed for over 30 years. It's just because that is what I was told when growing up. I urge everyone to dig into the Word, look up the passages I cite. So many pre-trib proponents will say "I believe". If you note, I am careful to go to Scripture. The prewrath position is the most biblically sound position, in my opinion.
In His Love,
I think what I'm going to do is discontinue posting in this comment section but make new blog posts so folks can more easily get to my responses.
Thank you for your graciousness.
Kathy,
I think it's wonderful what you're doing on your Blog! Whatever format you chose to adapt.
Do remember to keep letting people know about your Blog, okay?
How are things going with the sale of your property? I believe you said, awhile back that you had an offer, right? Anyway, I'm still in agreement with you, in prayer.
Have a lovely day in the Lord!
Love you! And God bless!
Hi Marge,
You always brighten my day when you drop in! The contract with our realtor expired on Oct. 31st. We are just going to sit tight for the time being. The market is really bad. We own our place outright. If the economy goes bad (like Grumpy and others are implying), we have natural resources right here on our property that we can utilize. The Lord might be telling us to just stay put.
Don't be a stranger, and I will pop back in at Joel's every now and then.
Love from Kathy
Kathy,
I was going to refrain from posting this, but I'll go ahead and do so. This is in regards to something Tim LaHaye apparently said. He stated, "The timing of the Rapture is not a cardinal doctrine over which Christians should argue and become divisive." When I read that, I couldn't help but say, "oh really?". Some may know of the on-going feud between him and Hank Hanegraaff. I won't say too much about that silly spat and mud slinging in which both men are just as guilty(and they both need to be placed on time-out), but I will say that it appears that Mr. LaHaye was the one who actually started it by publically insulting and mischaracterizing Mr. Hanegraaff's eschatological beliefs. Now, I don't agree with Mr. Hanegraaff's eschatological position, but I think that Mr. LaHaye was quite "divisive" and thus, hypocritical about saying one thing, but then behaving to the contrary. I just wish that they would instead opt to discuss these matters in a Christ-like manner and rightly divide the Word of truth in a public domain. This would be more prudent and beneficial for the Body of Christ. And, this goes for the rest of us as well. God help us.
Raul,
I'm not particularly a "Left Behind" fan but I wasn't aware that LaHaye had publicly slandered Hank. This may well be so, however, I've never heard LaHaye say anything disparaging about anyone. Whereas I do know LaHaye and other dispensationalists have been called antisemitic, as well a host of other things, in Hank's book and radio show. This is ironic considering Hank's track record of disparaging Israel. My two cents.
Mac,
Just curious, what do you not like about the "Left Behind" series, besides that it's fictional? About Hank's stance on Israel, I think that for the most part, he has been misunderstood. But, I'll let him speak for himself on that issue. Now, about the feud between Dr. LaHaye and Mr. Hanegraaff, I'll include the link to it, just be aware that the link takes you to a primarily Partial Preterist website, although it does contain some articles that are pro- Full Preterist. First of all, I do not agree with some of the things that Partial Preterists believe. But, I especially don't agree with Full Preterism at all. I really think that that view is dangerous and heretical. And, I think that that is why Hank Hanegraaff responded the way he did towards Dr. LaHaye's comments. Judge for yourself. Here is the link:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Press/media_04_hank-dallas.html
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